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 The Frontier is an Insult

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Aznmagicalman

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 1:39 am

Honestly my beef with The Frontier along with the gross fetishes, bad writing and etc, is also the NCR Questline.

I was honestly expecting better content from the NCR MQ. All I got were flashbacks and hallucinations, and too many hallucinations for that matter. Also the Liberator (Flying Aircraft Carrier) ruined it for me.

I was also expecting more battles with the NCR, fighting alongside NCR soldiers against the Legion, taking over Legion outposts, assassinating Legion leaders, sabotage missions, and etc.

For the Enclave, the devs are forgetting that the Enclave have pretty much abandoned their views of Human Purity after FO2. In Fallout 3, Colonel Autumn was not interested in purifying the wastes, and he opposed Eden's plans of purifying the wastes, instead wanting to rule the Wastes (Although the mutants weren't included). And in FNV, the Enclave Remnants too aren't really evil.
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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 1:56 am

Y'know? Ever since this topic was posted, and the whole Frontier team are in complete shambles over a mess they made, and now they're threatening to report people on the Nexusmods and get them banned because they are what? Enclave supporters? I kinda find it funny that the Enclave is taking all the heat, but never the NCR because according to most fanbois, the NCR would never do such a thing, right?

Hahahaha, I mean talk about fuckin' Call of Duty setups there much, what's next? Are we gonna have Call of Fallout: NCR-Ops or Enclave Warfare? Don't mind me. Just adding a bit of satire to this subject knowing how hilarious this debacle has become. So now that I have abandoned my hopes of trying out the mod, which I really won't be playing now, it's a real shame a good set of script and code had to be put to waste when I could've learned something from it. I suppose one could ask devilswish or *cough*someonewhoisnotxilandroihope*cough* someone with such experiences of making even that of tanks, but I suppose I'll practice this script and coding for myself. I mean, sure the underage slavery under a sexified deathclaw seems way over the edge, but it doesn't surprise me. A lot of sick motherfuckers, not just those in the furry community, are trying to normalize pedophilia in some way, and that is my turn-off the same deal with everybody else, I just tend to avoid that shit, or somewhat "look the other way". But now they're pushing hate on the Enclave, and they're being all out open about it? It's just kinda funny to me.

Sure, I treat the Enclave as every other enemy faction in Fallout, but the Enclave hasn't really done much to piss me off into that fanatic state to where I'm all cancel-culture level like "OH MAH GAWRSH, WE NEED TO CENSOR AND SHADOWBAN THE ENCLAVE, HURR DURR!!!", I mean what's next? Are they going after Enclave fan-mods? I can name one I know. Terran Space Command for Fallout 3, and these guys were ex-Enclave. You recruit them and you have another BoS chapter who is your enemy, or adversary rather. I guess my way of putting it, not all Enclave are evil bastards, and not all Brotherhood of Steel chapters are white and gold saints either. Still though, let's as a modding community learn from this, and NOT make the same mistakes as what was made in the Frontier, please fellow modders? It's all I ask from one modder to another, thanks.

But yeah, we really don't need to go all out hate mob on this. Because sadly and unfortunately, the Frontier dev team have shot themselves in their own foot, so let them tear each other apart from the inside, for those who are left fighting. And for the non-pedo modders? Well, learn from this, and just don't involve yourself in such subtle sorcery again preferably.

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 2:08 am

@BARRELSere wrote:
Dont bother.
Its a waste of time. Filled with their own politics, calling enclave fans trump supporters?
Terrible dialogue, COD missions, Aircraft form the Avengers, weird fetishes and that thing with the ZuTheSkun thing.
Boi.... that was bad.

I 100% Agree with what he said, also you gotta add the weird and awful pop culture references + the lizard sexual stuff (WTF were they thinking) and yeah the Developer posting pedo stuff it's awful. Overall, the mod has some technical marvels that I thought were not possible due to the game engine, but then you get the awful quests, some cringey AF stuff from the NPCs and lore-breaking things that are beyond imagination (I would add the sexual lizards here). To be honest I was truly disappointed, been waiting this mod for YEARS and this is what we got? It's insulting to say the least, also there has been some rumors about some part of the dev team knowing almost nothing about the lore of Fallout, some others did not even play New Vegas or any of the games and some others pretty much don't like FNV (citing TKs-Mantis from his last video on this topic) . In general, it was an amazing disaster.

PD: TKs-Mantis video
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SINS

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 3:12 am

@x-x--GX--x-x wrote:
@BARRELSere wrote:
Dont bother.
Its a waste of time. Filled with their own politics, calling enclave fans trump supporters?
Terrible dialogue, COD missions, Aircraft form the Avengers, weird fetishes and that thing with the ZuTheSkun thing.
Boi.... that was bad.

I 100% Agree with what he said, also you gotta add the weird and awful pop culture references + the lizard sexual stuff (WTF were they thinking) and yeah the Developer posting pedo stuff it's awful. Overall, the mod has some technical marvels that I thought were not possible due to the game engine, but then you get the awful quests, some cringey AF stuff from the NPCs and lore-breaking things that are beyond imagination (I would add the sexual lizards here). To be honest I was truly disappointed, been waiting this mod for YEARS and this is what we got? It's insulting to say the least, also there has been some rumors about some part of the dev team knowing almost nothing about the lore of Fallout, some others did not even play New Vegas or any of the games and some others pretty much don't like FNV (citing TKs-Mantis from his last video on this topic) . In general, it was an amazing disaster.

PD: TKs-Mantis video



Holy shit I didn't even know any of this was going down but after watching that video im glad I never downloaded it. Sounds like a huge clusterfuck of just pure immaturity and incisiveness. Not really what you want to hear about such a huge mod. And they should know that criticisms are a key point a huge mod like that, they tend to get more attention. I respect what he had to say. But I cant shit on it completely because I never played it and haven't really watched any gameplay, im sure there were a few elements I probably would of liked but holy shit!

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TheFixerino

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 4:29 am

It's honestly sad about them harassing a few youtubers who criticized the mod and then the lead dev to continue to on VNN's interview stream. Aside from that, it really upsets me seeing how for over 7 years they've bragged about the mod being extremely lore friendly, while at the same time most of their dev team and designers don't even play Fallout or downright state in their discord how much they hate Fallout: New Vegas
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Heisenberg

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 5:26 am

I respect the team for releasing this information about ZuTheSkunk rather than sweeping it under the rug, even if it has caused the complete collapse of their project.

But, do they really expect anyone to believe that Zu, and only Zu, is the reason the mod is like this? I mean, he was a 2D designer. He had little to do with the storyline and quests. And now they're trying to pin the whole America teen slave girl fantasy on him?

No, I just don't buy it. They had multiple people working on the storyline alone and they greenlighted this? There must have been someone who was aware of it's existence.

Thought to be brutally honest with you, it doesn't surprise me to see furries and pedos in the same camp: mental illness.

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Niar26

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 6:23 am

I looked inside the ESM of a pre-release version of the Frontier (don't ask me how i got it) (Last modified on 28 December) and most of the "America" npc formIDs etc have a lot of Child\SexSlaveChild\Teen\Minor\MinorSlave\Slavyslut\GetitGirl  prefixes.

I honestly don't believe for a second that only that dude knew about it. The yare trying to pin it down to him, but the truth is that there were more of them that were into this stuff.

There are still some prefixes liek that in the released version, but most of them got deleted prior the release. That means someone of the team saw the forms and "fixed" them.

No fucking excuses.

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Sec9

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 8:32 am

They built this mod in an echo chamber. Then when they got an influx of new eyes on the mod and people started noticing all these things and getting called out for it in their discord they couldn't handle the criticism/constructive criticism. They just dismissed it or just straight up banned you from the discord. They surely knew about all this degeneracy  in their mod and did nothing about it until they were caught (tgspy, phobos & the writers). Now they just throw the most obvious offender under the bus (Zu), wipe their hands clean of all wrong doing & quietly exit the stage. The writers plus all the enablers on the team that allowed all that kinky shit in the mod are still out there.

I feel like we haven't seen the end of this not even close the worst is yet to see the light of day. Honestly, after playing this mod for like 10-15 hours or so I just gave up I felt gross, removed all content from my computer. Watched videos of Frontier playthroughs/thoughts etc on YouTube and it seems I made the right for call for me. Nothing could've prepare me for what they included in this mod, especially when you dig deep. (girl who you can make your sex slave, lizard sex cult, deathclaw sex, rape fetishism and on and on) The writing is what truly makes all these things really deplorable just disgusting, like a bad fanfic written by edgy teenagers who know/care nothing about actual fallout lore.

Zu placed a Securitron in a dev room to explain his contributions to the mod, video below:


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DontShootTheMessenger

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 8:35 am

@Heisenberg wrote:
I respect the team for releasing this information about ZuTheSkunk rather than sweeping it under the rug, even if it has caused the complete collapse of their project.

But, do they really expect anyone to believe that Zu, and only Zu, is the reason the mod is like this? I mean, he was a 2D designer. He had little to do with the storyline and quests. And now they're trying to pin the whole America teen slave girl fantasy on him?

No, I just don't buy it. They had multiple people working on the storyline alone and they greenlighted this? There must have been someone who was aware of it's existence.

Thought to be brutally honest with you, it doesn't surprise me to see furries and pedos in the same camp: mental illness.

Not to mention, was Zu the guy who was involved in major dramas that the team got themselves into including the feud with Tk-Mantis or the bringing up of contemporary politics in response to requests for a joinable Enclave faction?

I don't know if it was intentional or not but because they combined the removal of Zu from the team and questionable content featuring America, it made Zu the fall guy for the issues surrounding the mod. I doubt Zu had any involvement with the very questionable contents in the mod. Even if he was the guy who was responsible for the zoophilia or the creepy choices for America, then that's probably worse for the guy overseeing the project because he either had no idea of such contents existing or was perfectly fine with the contents being in the mod at launch.

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54yeggan

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 4:58 pm

@DontShootTheMessenger wrote:
@Heisenberg wrote:
I respect the team for releasing this information about ZuTheSkunk rather than sweeping it under the rug, even if it has caused the complete collapse of their project.

But, do they really expect anyone to believe that Zu, and only Zu, is the reason the mod is like this? I mean, he was a 2D designer. He had little to do with the storyline and quests. And now they're trying to pin the whole America teen slave girl fantasy on him?

No, I just don't buy it. They had multiple people working on the storyline alone and they greenlighted this? There must have been someone who was aware of it's existence.

Thought to be brutally honest with you, it doesn't surprise me to see furries and pedos in the same camp: mental illness.

Not to mention, was Zu the guy who was involved in major dramas that the team got themselves into including the feud with Tk-Mantis or the bringing up of contemporary politics in response to requests for a joinable Enclave faction?

I don't know if it was intentional or not but because they combined the removal of Zu from the team and questionable content featuring America, it made Zu the fall guy for the issues surrounding the mod. I doubt Zu had any involvement with the very questionable contents in the mod. Even if he was the guy who was responsible for the zoophilia or the creepy choices for America, then that's probably worse for the guy overseeing the project because he either had no idea of such contents existing or was perfectly fine with the contents being in the mod at launch.

All I have to say in response is this...

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Heisenberg

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 29, 2021 7:01 pm

@DontShootTheMessenger wrote:
@Heisenberg wrote:
I respect the team for releasing this information about ZuTheSkunk rather than sweeping it under the rug, even if it has caused the complete collapse of their project.

But, do they really expect anyone to believe that Zu, and only Zu, is the reason the mod is like this? I mean, he was a 2D designer. He had little to do with the storyline and quests. And now they're trying to pin the whole America teen slave girl fantasy on him?

No, I just don't buy it. They had multiple people working on the storyline alone and they greenlighted this? There must have been someone who was aware of it's existence.

Thought to be brutally honest with you, it doesn't surprise me to see furries and pedos in the same camp: mental illness.

Not to mention, was Zu the guy who was involved in major dramas that the team got themselves into including the feud with Tk-Mantis or the bringing up of contemporary politics in response to requests for a joinable Enclave faction?

I don't know if it was intentional or not but because they combined the removal of Zu from the team and questionable content featuring America, it made Zu the fall guy for the issues surrounding the mod. I doubt Zu had any involvement with the very questionable contents in the mod. Even if he was the guy who was responsible for the zoophilia or the creepy choices for America, then that's probably worse for the guy overseeing the project because he either had no idea of such contents existing or was perfectly fine with the contents being in the mod at launch.

That was Phobos' fault I believe. He was behind the creepy snake sex, the Legion quests and he was also the one who was supposed to have made the Enclave questline for those who felt left out before he refused once again.

The NPC securitron Zu made for himself says he wrote some of the crusader quests. The one surrounding America is still a mystery, but I doubt he solely is to blame.

All of the writing team had to be made aware of it, and if they didn't then that's just poor project management. I would even go so far as to say the character designers had to be aware of it, seeing as they're the ones literally designing her appearance based off a description given by her creator. If what Niar says is true, they would've had to view her appearance, race, IDs, etc in the Creation Kit, and that would've incriminated them in this too by the act of merely keeping the fact to themselves.

This isn't a jigsaw puzzle is what I'm trying to say. Different parts aren't isolated pieces in themselves. They fit to make the same picture, the same project. I doubt everything about America's character was Zu's fault, even if he played a part in her creation.

Honestly, the only people I believe likely didn't have full insight into this are the modelers, texturers, landscape designers, interior designers, etc. Their job doesn't require them to know of it, while being a writer does. And given that roles in the Frontier are quite flexible (Zu made the icons but he also contributed to quests), I would even say that some of those people previously stated would have known about it too.

I also believe that macintroll's mod deletion was in response to this. While I have never interacted with the guy, I would see myself doing the same thing if I was him, feeling pretty pissed off that the project I spent hundreds or thousands of hours working for suddenly collapsed  But this is just speculation.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT:


So I only just watched a recap of the Frontier interview stream (that was removed) with Tgspy. Some revelations came out that might support or change my opinions on things.

The Frontier website has also been taken down, so it's hard to find the roles of the modders now without using the Wayback machine. Most of them have left the Discord too.

I apologise if I previously got anything wrong about this in my previous posts. The interview with Tgspy was taken down and there was almost no way of finding out who was assigned which roles except through rumors. I had to find a reupload to fact check.

1. Odinsword was the Crusader writer and wrote most of the side quests including America and her stinky feet.
2. Devilswish was the NCR questline writer
3. Nazo was the Legion lead
4. Zu was only the icon designer. He fixed some armors and made female versions of certain armors. He also fixed certain quests. But he had next to NOTHING to do with the quest design/writing process.
5. Phobos was only the voice acting and casting assistant

This only further consolidates the point I was trying to make in my earlier posts. Zu is the SCAPEGOAT. He was not involved in the writing. His self-inserts were creepy, but they weren't half as creepy as the writing. Yet he is the one who is being blamed for everything.

If anything, it's Odin behind the "America" problem. NOT Zu. Which leads me on to this:
- There were members on the team that apparently DIDN'T know what Zu uploaded
- The project lead (Tgspy) openly admits they don't do background checks on people they're working with
- Zu was only on the team for less than three years, and despite that he made such a large chunk of their content, that it would be near impossible to remove in less than a year.
- None of which was story related
- There were members on the team that thought up the America sex slave girl and Snake/Deathclaw sex without any input from Zu
- There were members on the the team that were defending this (including Tgspy)
- These members soon backed down, claiming it was nothing more than a "joke." (If so, why defend it?)
- There were members on the team that saw the FormIDs, saw the basis of the character and greenlighted it
- Apparently they had NO idea that Zu was a pedo despite his bizarre Deviantart account showing up as the first Google search result
- Apparently they designed America with ZERO thought about her age, despite making her 17
- Apparently they thought this was acceptable before changing it last minute

FACT: There were members on this team that knew Zu was a pedo, even if they deny it.
FACT: There were members on this team that likely DIDN'T know Zu was a pedo.
FACT: There were members on this team who were close to being just as degenerate as Zu.
FACT: This mod would have been just as creepy without Zu.
FACT: Zu is the scapegoat for the failures of the others.
FACT: The mod was filled with neckbeards, incels, furries and ghoul sex fanfic writers.

Will do more research into this, just so I can wrap my head around it some more. It really sucks to see such talent wasted by the degenerates on the Internet who want to shove their animal/bestiality fetish everywhere.

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 30, 2021 1:14 am

@Niar26 wrote:
I looked inside the ESM of a pre-release version of the Frontier (don't ask me how i got it) (Last modified on 28 December) and most of the "America" npc formIDs etc have a lot of Child\SexSlaveChild\Teen\Minor\MinorSlave\Slavyslut\GetitGirl  prefixes.

I honestly don't believe for a second that only that dude knew about it. The yare trying to pin it down to him, but the truth is that there were more of them that were into this stuff.

There are still some prefixes liek that in the released version, but most of them got deleted prior the release. That means someone of the team saw the forms and "fixed" them.

No fucking excuses.
 Oh God, that's even worse than what we all thought then. What I am about to say might be kinda harsh but IMO they deserve it, the mod should be burned down to hell, 7 years for this? What a joke. Taking your word on this, it kinda means the whole team knew about all that stuff and just didn't care, they are just tryna manage their way outta it, tbh their words, being sorry and all that seems pretty dishonest if we take those prefixes into account (IMO from the beginning I said, mhm they do not seem to be truly honest about this stuff but okay). 

(Barely know this Youtuber, but man oh man, what a great video summarizing the mod)
Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 30, 2021 1:16 am

@Heisenberg wrote:

If anything, it's Odin behind the "America" problem. NOT Zu. Which leads me on to this:
- There were members on the team that apparently DIDN'T know what Zu uploaded
- The project lead (Tgspy) openly admits they don't do background checks on people they're working with
- Zu was only on the team for less than three years, and despite that he made such a large chunk of their content, that it would be near impossible to remove in less than a year.
- None of which was story related
- There were members on the team that thought up the America sex slave girl and Snake/Deathclaw sex without any input from Zu
- There were members on the the team that were defending this (including Tgspy)
- These members soon backed down, claiming it was nothing more than a "joke." (If so, why defend it?)
- There were members on the team that saw the FormIDs, saw the basis of the character and greenlighted it
- Apparently they had NO idea that Zu was a pedo despite his bizarre Deviantart account showing up as the first Google search result
- Apparently they designed America with ZERO thought about her age, despite making her 17
- Apparently they thought this was acceptable before changing it last minute

FACT: There were members on this team that knew Zu was a pedo, even if they deny it.
FACT: There were members on this team that likely DIDN'T know Zu was a pedo.
FACT: There were members on this team who were close to being just as degenerate as Zu.
FACT: This mod would have been just as creepy without Zu.
FACT: Zu is the scapegoat for the failures of the others.
FACT: The mod was filled with neckbeards, incels, furries and ghoul sex fanfic writers.

Will do more research into this, just so I can wrap my head around it some more. It really sucks to see such talent wasted by the degenerates on the Internet who want to shove their animal/bestiality fetish everywhere.

I'm not going through the whole post, but I want to address some points you made.

Not mentioned by you, but people talking about these "lizard people" is exaggerated in my opinion. While it's not lore friendly, though they are 100% optional content. Why it's such a bad thing for some people? We have Wanamingos, Deathclaws, Centaurs and Aliens. I watched the TK-Mantis video and he made a good point by cutting creatures which are not lore friendly, but these snake guys are pretty much in the middle ground. They might be too intelligent species and with some tweaking this race should be just fine. And about having sex with these things and the certain Deathclaw, again, why it's such a great deal when these choices are 100% optional to do. Don't get me wrong, I don't support beastility. Sure, the image of you doing this in the game is weird and might be out of place, but does not represent you in real life. These options should have been hidden with "Wild Wasteland" perk at least (Haven't played that far yet, so dunno about that. Take this with grain of salt). There are much worse things you can do in the Fallout universe, you probably heard some of these arguments before; like killing children, slavery (you can enslave America and Arcade Gannon duhh) or getting raped by a super mutant. Just by putting certain options in The Frontier does not automatically make you a creep, BUT your interests might have a connection. And this does not make people as "neckbeards, incels, furries and ghoul sex fanfic writers". Hell, the pedo furrie we are talking about only did mainly pipboy icons and some random fixes and stuff in the mod.

I agree that America is really awkward (cringe per say) and annoying, but she is not a minor. I remember Odinsword saying that they made a note where it said that she turned 18 years old, but the note itself was few years old, to make sense the passage of time. (Did I say it right? English is hard :-D). They later changed her age to 21 since people kept complaining about it.

There are some rumours that Devilswish had The Frontier as hostage if people didn't do as he wanted, can't say if that is true or not. But that might explain why some parts of the game are strange or stupid. He was project lead for a long time.

As Zu being a scapegoat is a bit far-fetched. They worked on a project for a long time, at max 7 years. It's a long time to make a mod and it's "easy" to get burnt out when you know how hard the GECK might be to use. After 7 years I'd want some peace and quiet as well if I were developing a mod this big, though they made a mistake by leaving the project when the Zu incident happened. They should have stayed and fixed the mod instead of leaving, but I somewhant understand them after the discord raid. There is so much hate going on right now. Why Zu is being a scapegoat when he is removing all his "art" from his own Internet profiles? He is a degenerate and should be punished. As for background checks, I don't do much of them by myself, so you shouldn't make assumptions about that if the development team means it or not when they said they don't make background checks.

I want to see things objectively and be neutral about the whole thing and don't want to have assumptions. Anyone can claim anything they want, but fuck Zu, that is what I agree with.

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 30, 2021 1:21 am

@c4in wrote:
@Heisenberg wrote:

If anything, it's Odin behind the "America" problem. NOT Zu. Which leads me on to this:
- There were members on the team that apparently DIDN'T know what Zu uploaded
- The project lead (Tgspy) openly admits they don't do background checks on people they're working with
- Zu was only on the team for less than three years, and despite that he made such a large chunk of their content, that it would be near impossible to remove in less than a year.
- None of which was story related
- There were members on the team that thought up the America sex slave girl and Snake/Deathclaw sex without any input from Zu
- There were members on the the team that were defending this (including Tgspy)
- These members soon backed down, claiming it was nothing more than a "joke." (If so, why defend it?)
- There were members on the team that saw the FormIDs, saw the basis of the character and greenlighted it
- Apparently they had NO idea that Zu was a pedo despite his bizarre Deviantart account showing up as the first Google search result
- Apparently they designed America with ZERO thought about her age, despite making her 17
- Apparently they thought this was acceptable before changing it last minute

FACT: There were members on this team that knew Zu was a pedo, even if they deny it.
FACT: There were members on this team that likely DIDN'T know Zu was a pedo.
FACT: There were members on this team who were close to being just as degenerate as Zu.
FACT: This mod would have been just as creepy without Zu.
FACT: Zu is the scapegoat for the failures of the others.
FACT: The mod was filled with neckbeards, incels, furries and ghoul sex fanfic writers.

Will do more research into this, just so I can wrap my head around it some more. It really sucks to see such talent wasted by the degenerates on the Internet who want to shove their animal/bestiality fetish everywhere.

I'm not going through the whole post, but I want to address some points you made.

Not mentioned by you, but people talking about these "lizard people" is exaggerated in my opinion. While it's not lore friendly, though they are 100% optional content. Why it's such a bad thing for some people? We have Wanamingos, Deathclaws, Centaurs and Aliens. I watched the TK-Mantis video and he made a good point by cutting creatures which are not lore friendly, but these snake guys are pretty much in the middle ground. They might be too intelligent species and with some tweaking this race should be just fine. And about having sex with these things and the certain Deathclaw, again, why it's such a great deal when these choices are 100% optional to do. Don't get me wrong, I don't support beastility. Sure, the image of you doing this in the game is weird and might be out of place, but does not represent you in real life. These options should have been hidden with "Wild Wasteland" perk at least (Haven't played that far yet, so dunno about that. Take this with grain of salt). There are much worse things you can do in the Fallout universe, you probably heard some of these arguments before; like killing children, slavery (you can enslave America and Arcade Gannon duhh) or getting raped by a super mutant. Just by putting certain options in The Frontier does not automatically make you a creep, BUT your interests might have a connection. And this does not make people as "neckbeards, incels, furries and ghoul sex fanfic writers". Hell, the pedo furrie we are talking about only did mainly pipboy icons and some random fixes and stuff in the mod.

I agree that America is really awkward (cringe per say) and annoying, but she is not a minor. I remember Odinsword saying that they made a note where it said that she turned 18 years old, but the note itself was few years old, to make sense the passage of time. (Did I say it right? English is hard :-D). They later changed her age to 21 since people kept complaining about it.

There are some rumours that Devilswish had The Frontier as hostage if people didn't do as he wanted, can't say if that is true or not. But that might explain why some parts of the game are strange or stupid. He was project lead for a long time.

As Zu being a scapegoat is a bit far-fetched. They worked on a project for a long time, at max 7 years. It's a long time to make a mod and it's "easy" to get burnt out when you know how hard the GECK might be to use. After 7 years I'd want some peace and quiet as well if I were developing a mod this big, though they made a mistake by leaving the project when the Zu incident happened. They should have stayed and fixed the mod instead of leaving, but I somewhant understand them after the discord raid. There is so much hate going on right now. Why Zu is being a scapegoat when he is removing all his "art" from his own Internet profiles? He is a degenerate and should be punished. As for background checks, I don't do much of them by myself, so you shouldn't make assumptions about that if the development team means it or not when they said they don't make background checks.

I want to see thing objectively and be neutral about the whole thing and don't want to have assumptions. Anyone can claim anything they want, but fuck Zu, that is what I agree with.
 
 Still, I think its kinda weird the need for them to say someone is X years old, like they knew she wasn't planned to be 18-21, that's just the feeling I had about that part. 
  
 About the last part, yeah fuck Zu. No words about his whole pedo stuff, just... awful, awful human being.

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 30, 2021 3:35 am

@c4in wrote:
I'm not going through the whole post, but I want to address some points you made.

Not mentioned by you, but people talking about these "lizard people" is exaggerated in my opinion. While it's not lore friendly, though they are 100% optional content. Why it's such a bad thing for some people? We have Wanamingos, Deathclaws, Centaurs and Aliens. I watched the TK-Mantis video and he made a good point by cutting creatures which are not lore friendly, but these snake guys are pretty much in the middle ground. They might be too intelligent species and with some tweaking this race should be just fine. And about having sex with these things and the certain Deathclaw, again, why it's such a great deal when these choices are 100% optional to do. Don't get me wrong, I don't support beastility. Sure, the image of you doing this in the game is weird and might be out of place, but does not represent you in real life. These options should have been hidden with "Wild Wasteland" perk at least (Haven't played that far yet, so dunno about that. Take this with grain of salt).

100% optional content doesn't mean it's somehow exempt from criticism.

Fallout is a game franchise heavily seeped in 1950s sci-fi and post-apocalyptic conventions. All of the creatures you listed fall into one or both of these two genres. The way the lizards were portrayed however, did not. They aren't iconic within the genre, they aren't a witty callback to anything, they just exist to be bizarre or fulfil a sick fetish.

The monsters that are unique to Fallout such as Deathclaws, Centaurs, etc. They are unique in design only. In purpose, they exist to terrify the player and to further reflect the horrors of science and unethical experimentation. The lizard race in the Frontier however, exist once again, to fulfil a sick fetish. They don't chase you, they don't scare you, they don't reflect the setting. They want to tear your pants off and have sex with you. They want to use all humans to breed.

Not to mention that they're a unity asset rip. Their design isn't intended for Fallout. It isn't an inherently Fallout design.

The whole deathclaw sex conversation is shoved down your throat from the moment you enter the area. It automatically engages you in conversation with the lusty deathclaw.

First line:
"*The creature before you languidly lashes it's... Her? Tongue in the air, tasting your scent.
The Deathclaw's wandering eyes convey all you need to know. You are looking at an entity of pure lust.*"


This is the very first line! Any writer knows that the first line sets the tone, and this one just sets an awkward, disgusting atmosphere for anyone who doesn't pop an erection every time they see those monsters up close. Then you get to the other dialogue options. There's about 1 sex option for every stat. You can have sex with the deathclaw with high Strength, Endurance and Agility. It's not just one isolated line of dialogue. There's so many lines of it that the entire dialogue box is covered in lines of deathclaw smut. There's only ONE option to escape this action. It's clear what option the writers wanted the player to choose.

Wild Wasteland in New Vegas was only for little references here and there to pop culture. You could theoretically take the Wild Wasteland perk, know none of the references and still be immersed within the game. Even those who took the perk and caught the references are still immersed, because it's not improbable within the universe. It's just a funny easter egg. Nobody saw the Indiana Jones fridge easter egg as immersion-breaking.

On paper, a talking Deathclaw is a great idea. Perhaps they could have rekindled a bit of Fallout 2? Make it so this intelligent Deathclaw is a remnant of those we saw in Fallout 2? But NO. They wanted to make it all about the sex. So instead of an exposition-filled conversation with this beast, we get some awkward intercourse bestiality instead. It's disappointing.

@C4in wrote:
There are much worse things you can do in the Fallout universe, you probably heard some of these arguments before; like killing children, slavery (you can enslave America and Arcade Gannon duhh) or getting raped by a super mutant. Just by putting certain options in The Frontier does not automatically make you a creep, BUT your interests might have a connection. And this does not make people as "neckbeards, incels, furries and ghoul sex fanfic writers". Hell, the pedo furrie we are talking about only did mainly pipboy icons and some random fixes and stuff in the mod.

I did address this in my previous post, so I'll just echo some of the same points here.

In Fallout 1&2, you could kill children. But it came at a cost. You were locked out of most, if not all of the in-game content, and the whole "Child Killer" perk was just bonus content. You were ridiculed for doing so. The game makes that clear. In Fallout 3/NV/4, all children are essential. You can't kill them.

Slavery the player can do in the Fallout games has also never been overtly sexual. You can enslave kids in Fallout 3, but only for the slavers in Paradise Falls. You could buy Clover as a slave, but she was only useful in combat. For the player, she wasn't a sex slave. You could only enslave Arcade Gannon to help Caesar. You CANNOT enslave ANYONE to be your sex slave.

In the Frontier, you can enslave a barely 18 year old girl to be your sex slave. Fallout has never seen anything like this before. If it did, the game would've been destroyed by the media and journalists, and rightly so.

And the people arguing that this is a cruel universe clearly don't grasp the fundamentals of game design. People like when shocking things happen in 18-rated games, but go too far over the line and you won't be able to find one person who enjoys it. Adult slaves, rape, murder, etc? All acceptable in a dark, gritty video game because they tackle grown-up subjects. But a teenage girl that the player can enslave? People like doing bad things, but they don't want to be a pedophile or a rapist. Those taboos are just not meant to be crossed.


@c4in wrote:
As Zu being a scapegoat is a bit far-fetched. They worked on a project for a long time, at max 7 years. It's a long time to make a mod and it's "easy" to get burnt out when you know how hard the GECK might be to use. After 7 years I'd want some peace and quiet as well if I were developing a mod this big, though they made a mistake by leaving the project when the Zu incident happened. They should have stayed and fixed the mod instead of leaving, but I somewhant understand them after the discord raid. There is so much hate going on right now. Why Zu is being a scapegoat when he is removing all his "art" from his own Internet profiles? He is a degenerate and should be punished. As for background checks, I don't do much of them by myself, so you shouldn't make assumptions about that if the development team means it or not when they said they don't make background checks.

I want to see things objectively and be neutral about the whole thing and don't want to have assumptions. Anyone can claim anything they want, but fuck Zu, that is what I agree with.

Zu was only on the project for 3 years. He joined fairly late in the development process. Despite this, Tgspy was the one who stated during the interview that had they remove all of his content, it would take minimum another year. As you said, they're all burnt out. Working on a project for another year without the person who made a hefty fraction of your content seems like hard work, and it doesn't surprise me they all left. It was a time for celebration cut short by the news, and it's immensely sad.

Now I want to make one thing clear. I am NOT defending Zu. He is a degenerate who shouldn't be on the Internet at all. But to say that it is SOLELY his fault would be a lie. And while I like to remain optimistic, I just find it extremely hard to believe that one guy was the sole reason behind the creepy stuff. He was a 2D designer. He didn't write any of the America stuff, feet stuff, sex slave stuff, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 30, 2021 4:15 am

To clear things up, even if I don't like the guy, rather we haven't been on the best terms since we first met, but Xilandro only scripted cars and nothing else. He was not involved with Odin or Zu's content from what I last heard, and it doesn't seem like his kind of profile either. Love him or hate him, but cut him some slack, for the record.

As for Nazo, I can't say I know him enough nor have I even met the guy to know what his intents are. I know he invented most of the legion questing and scripting, I don't know what joke he was mentioning that got taken out of context, whether it's the lizard people or the Enclave fascist part, which honestly from my PoV looks like Odin's doing, from all the evidence I gather and read. I would hardly find such jokes involving bestiary and pedophilia mixed in together funny in even the slightest, which I don't. Especially when it involves a human minor. Now that they're saying America is 21, is just only trying to put very light effort in the amount of work that needs to be done in order to unfuck this project.

Seeing they're using Zu as the scapegoat means clearly that this controversy is far from over, yet indeed here we are. How many days has it been since OP posted this? Three days and still ongoing. I mean, one could go through the game files and try with their independent hand to change alot of the game's content that will make it look less cringey, and less taboo. But at this stage of the game, I honestly don't know if the Frontier will recover from this or not. This is the reason why I take a slow approach to what seems to be a promising award-title status of release to the prying eyes of anyone in it's witness, because it saves me the disappointment and outrage, like I mentioned earlier. But even if the mod itself is redacted into a much more family-friendly concept, meaning all the sex stuff is removed from it, and if not well, the pedo shit will be removed, but even if these changes were made, none of this from what I've learned of the project so far, is lore-friendly. Not saying it's unplayable, but alot of shit just doesn't make sense in storytelling, like for instance, how the fuck can an NCR splinter group build an Avengers-inspired helicarrier in a few years time?

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 30, 2021 5:35 am

@Emperor Slyther wrote:
To clear things up, even if I don't like the guy, rather we haven't been on the best terms since we first met, but Xilandro only scripted cars and nothing else. He was not involved with Odin or Zu's content from what I last heard, and it doesn't seem like his kind of profile either. Love him or hate him, but cut him some slack, for the record.

As for Nazo, I can't say I know him enough nor have I even met the guy to know what his intents are. I know he invented most of the legion questing and scripting, I don't know what joke he was mentioning that got taken out of context, whether it's the lizard people or the Enclave fascist part, which honestly from my PoV looks like Odin's doing, from all the evidence I gather and read. I would hardly find such jokes involving bestiary and pedophilia mixed in together funny in even the slightest, which I don't. Especially when it involves a human minor. Now that they're saying America is 21, is just only trying to put very light effort in the amount of work that needs to be done in order to unfuck this project.

Say it with me!

The Frontier team had a pedophile on their team. They also had a pedophile/bestiality fantasy embedded within the mod. There must have been team members who knew this
BUT
it is VERY likely that not ALL of them knew this. Only a few
ESPECIALLY
considering that many modders, Xilandro included, had nothing to do with him or the writers aside from the fact they're working on the same project.

That's the foundation of my point. I'm not arguing that EVERYONE knew. I'm arguing that some knew and chose to keep it to themselves. You don't just randomly recruit some guy to a 7 year old project you've poured your heart into without doing background checks. If you want to volunteer for a mod project as big as The Frontier, to have any chance of getting your position you need a solid portfolio of past works that are visible. Do you really think they would recruit John Doe McFuckface with no previous history of modding behind him, over someone with YEARS of modding experience? Or do you think that they would do a background check to make sure they aren't picking up dead weight?

If nobody knew about this and Tgspy is indeed telling the truth, he or whoever was recruiting really fucked up. His deviantart account is the first thing you see when you search his name into Google. Were they really relying on Nexus Mods members search to recruit new members? Or did they just really think John Joe James and his talking parrot was a perfect addition to the writing team. Of course not silly!

@Emperor Slyther wrote:
Seeing they're using Zu as the scapegoat means clearly that this controversy is far from over, yet indeed here we are. How many days has it been since OP posted this? Three days and still ongoing. I mean, one could go through the game files and try with their independent hand to change alot of the game's content that will make it look less cringey, and less taboo.

If you're trying to imply that changing the names of something in the game files that nobody actually sees during gameplay will help anyone feel more comfortable playing this then you're terribly mistaken.

The point we are trying to make by bringing up the names of things in the game files is to showcase just how embedded this pedo attitude is within the mod, how pivotal it is to the core of the project, and how cancerous of a tumor it is on this mod's quality.

The attitude is so harmful to this mod, that it has infested itself in the main questline itself, the side content and the companions. As previously stated, Odin, the same guy who created America, was the same guy who did a lot of the side content AND the crusaders questline. If you remove ALL of that, it leaves you with half a game.

What about Zu? As previously stated by Tgspy himself, to remove Zu's work would take a year minimum. Keep in mind that everybody on the team have different skillsets too, so if all of Zu's content was removed, they would either have to find someone else or get a burnt out member of their team with similar skills to carry that burden, of which NOBODY wants to do.

And bear in mind, if you remove both Zu and Odin's work, the entire house of cards collapses upon itself from both a narrative and technical standpoint up until someone recreates their work.

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 30, 2021 7:06 am

@Heisenberg wrote:
That's the foundation of my point. I'm not arguing that EVERYONE knew. I'm arguing that some knew and chose to keep it to themselves. You don't just randomly recruit some guy to a 7 year old project you've poured your heart into without doing background checks. If you want to volunteer for a mod project as big as The Frontier, to have any chance of getting your position you need a solid portfolio of past works that are visible. Do you really think they would recruit John Doe McFuckface with no previous history of modding behind him, over someone with YEARS of modding experience? Or do you think that they would do a background check to make sure they aren't picking up dead weight?

Nobody is saying you confirmed that everyone knew. At least not from my end. There were people involved with the inner circles of "He-Who-Did-Not-Suicide-Himself-In-NYC-Jail" who also knew the activities of child trafficking and pedophilia involved, especially on pedo island where everything happened in secret, and nobody knew much about it until several years after 9/11. And even so, his butler and top servants haven't said fuck-all about it either. I am aware these sick motherfuckers exist in our society, am I saying I'm part of the Frontier dev team? No. They didn't ask, I didn't bother. Though it's quite obvious we're speaking the same language when IF any members of the dev team KNEW, they should've exposed it and said so right away. But the fact that many people who are involved in such crimes and knew about it, yet they never said anything about it until having to later testify in the courts, doesn't say a whole lot about them. To me, it just seems like they're trying to cover it under the rug.

@Heisenberg wrote:
If you're trying to imply that changing the names of something in the game files that nobody actually sees during gameplay will help anyone feel more comfortable playing this then you're terribly mistaken.

The point we are trying to make by bringing up the names of things in the game files is to showcase just how embedded this pedo attitude is within the mod, how pivotal it is to the core of the project, and how cancerous of a tumor it is on this mod's quality.

The attitude is so harmful to this mod, that it has infested itself in the main questline itself, the side content and the companions. As previously stated, Odin, the same guy who created America, was the same guy who did a lot of the side content AND the crusaders questline. If you remove ALL of that, it leaves you with half a game.

The fact that I bring this up, KNOWING the project itself is in hot water, I never said it would be a simple bailout. But even if these charges are implemented, it hardly dismisses what has already been said and done.

And then, what would you add to replace and fill in the empty gaps once you do remove quests related to America, the lizard fetish, or even the crusaders that played an integral role in the game's story? Again, I never said it would be easy, nor will it be done in three weeks minimum. All I'm saying for the record is that if there are some team members of the project with core-integrity, ever hope to reverse the damage that is already done, it's not going to be as simple as that, that I can acknowledge and accept. Because in my honest opinion, it doesn't seem very likely in this stage of the game that the Frontier will surface again. But I don't even know if it ever will. I could be wrong on this, and I'm okay with that if proven so.

@Heisenberg wrote:
What about Zu? As previously stated by Tgspy himself, to remove Zu's work would take a year minimum. Keep in mind that everybody on the team have different skillsets too, so if all of Zu's content was removed, they would either have to find someone else or get a burnt out member of their team with similar skills to carry that burden, of which NOBODY wants to do.

And bear in mind, if you remove both Zu and Odin's work, the entire house of cards collapses upon itself from both a narrative and technical standpoint up until someone recreates their work.

To be honest, I really don't care about Zu at this point. Sure, he is a messed up motherfucker, but it doesn't end with him. We both make the same exact points that this debacle is far from over. I've been modding Bethesda's games for 10 years straight and I know projects like these usually involves people of all variety of experiences in one field and the other. The fact that I usually do standalone work, never before have I worked with people with similar intentions and even if say if I did organize a team of modders, and just before final release, you think I'd simply release it without proper beta-testing first? No. In my line of work, I double-check everything, and keep up to pace with what changes have been added to the mod's detail. And if I ever did see anything that relates to pedophilia or any of that messed up shit, I would simply not release it, and call out the motherfuckers firsthand. Yes, I would very much do that, like everybody SHOULD. But that's not the world we live in, and not everybody is opinionated in their own ways like me and you. But even if the project was not mine to begin with, and say I was one of the modders and if I knew about it, I'd call it out like it is, and if I didn't know about it, why would people want to blast me after speaking in my defense? No, I don't know everything that people do, and I usually keep to myself on other related worksets.

No, the bottom line is, I don't want to blast Zu. No, I want to blast EVERYONE involved with this fuckery and put them all on trial and jury, I do absolutely believe that children of all ages should be protected and these monsters need to be stopped at whatever cost. but before I do that, like we as ordinary people usually do, is investigate, gather the evidence, put the pieces together, and that's how we determine who is guilty and who is not. How do I do this myself? I do not pursue opinions, I pursue only FACTS, and I see you have posted some. Normally I would expect these facts to be backed with the link to evidence through screenshots, video, recordings or whatever. Even though the fact we've discovered Zu's DeviantArt page and looking at the sick fuckery that he's posted on there, is all too convincing the same. These are the facts, yes. And of course I'm saying the modders who were NOT involved with the America and deathclaw stuff, like Odin was, and even if they're not aware of it, they don't deserve the heat as much as Zu, Odin and the others do. I want the modders involved to be judged fairly. But of course we knew this. I don't know much about the lizard fetish part however, but I'm indifferent to this unless it involves minors, but until I see proof of that, I'm abstract. And for the record, Hugo told me about the dev team members through Discord.

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 30, 2021 11:16 am

@Heisenberg You make good points. Also I might have missed some things you said in the previous post before I answered to you.

I liked that you could do bad deeds in older Fallout games and they had consequenses by doing so. It makes the game much more immersive. As for lizard creatures and other things; while I can accept some un-lore friendliness, the mod sure feels too oversexualized to a point it's not fun anymore on that part.

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PostSubject: Re: The Frontier is an Insult   The Frontier is an Insult - Page 3 EmptyTue Feb 02, 2021 3:10 am

Guys... 

The Frontier is back.
The mod got un-hidden on Nexus.

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The Frontier is an Insult

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