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 So I gave Fallout 2 a go...

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gavin gold

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PostSubject: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyWed Oct 16, 2019 7:48 pm

People who yearn for those days have either gone nuts or have childhood nostalgia.

So I'm relatively new to the saga. My first fallout was NV. I've played only NV and Fallout 4. I quite like them both. But people keep insisting that "they just don't make them like the old hardcore RPGs anymore". So I downloaded Fallout 2 to get a feel of the "old days". I can't decide if it was boring or enraging.

So, first, I don't hold the fact that it's old against it. I know that a game made in 1998 can't have the level of gameplay you'd get today. But dear god...

It starts by giving me a screen full of numbers, barely explaining what they mean. Then it throws me in a dungeon, no tutorial no nothing. The combat might be the most exhausting chore I've ever seen in a game; there was nothing even remotely fun about it. After dying a few times and figuring things out I finally make it out of the dungeon, only to once again find myself outside with no clue where I need to go or what's going on. I find the elder who tells me to go find a trader in Klamath ("no clue how to get there but I'm sure I can figure it out"). There's some secondary quests to do in Arroyo but with that combat system? I don't think I'm up for doing anything that I don't absolutely have to do. Then I noticed than my PER is significantly lower then it was at the beginning. "Do healing powders permanently lower my PER? If not why is it still so low?" I look at the healing powder description, and no clue. OK... Then I figure out how to get to Klamath. I go to trade and, surprise! I just gave away my stuff to the trader because lo and behold, it doesn't automatically charge you, you have to manually ask for money. "Whatever. I need a gun, OK? Let's pay the man the price he's asking... Oh, here's another surprise. I give him the exact amount of money he wants for the gun, but he says that's not a fair trade. What?" I decide I'll just find a gun in a dungeon. So I remember I'm trying to find Vic but because there's no directions anywhere in this damn thing I look around town only to find a robot and a crashed vertibird. "What in the world is that doing right next to the town?" But of course I can't escape because of the horrible combat system, and I can't win that fight, so I die. I try to load a previous save, and... Oh, look at that! Autosave was not yet invented.

Honestly, I kept looking for the so called "great RPG elements" and I couldn't find any. The dialogue is bland and boring. The system is way too complex to the point it feels like I'm doing homework (like the "game" expects you to take notes and keep a calculator by your side). And I can now confirm that the idea I've heard around that you could roleplay as any kind of character, including a pacifist, is not true. If at least one of your initial skills is not melee, your first few missions are torture.

Having experienced that has taught me two lessons. One, the direction in which they took Fallout makes complete sense. That game was way too niche. Two, Fallout 4 is a godsend.
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c4in

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyWed Oct 16, 2019 10:37 pm

I guess I can say that turn based isometric RPGs are not made for you, but I think you are just nitpicking about the game or you are just spoiled by newer games. Like the thing with the trader when you have to manually add the money or not using manual saves. Even if games had autosave feature, I wouldn't have faith in them all the time since by not saving manually it has a chance to fuck you up.

You have played Fallout: New Vegas, so you must know the basics how skills, traits and SPECIAL works and if you click on anything you are given the basic information about the stats what they do. The first dungeon is basically a tutorial level. Good that you didn't start with Fallout 1, there you jump right into the first mission from the Vault into the wasteland to acquire a water chip. That's the stuff why I like games like Fallout 1 and 2, they do not hold your hand all the time and tell you what to do. You are supposed to explore and talk to people to learn about the wasteland and people living there. If you actually paid any attention and explored in Klamath, you should know that Vic can be found at the Den, your next destination. Pipboy tracks some of your quests and information.

Also, they don't have linear gameplay like "go there, do that, in that order", you have more than one option to do things, or just ignore and do something else. And you can play as true pacifist if you want, if you have high speech you can talk your way from almost everything, you can also skip the fight with the door guardian inside the Arroyo temple by talking. You can even beat the final boss without firing a single bullet. Of course you have to build a character for it, but Fallout 2 is an RPG after all. In Fallout 4 you can't do that. And speaking of which, what do you think which has better dialogue, Fallout 2 or Fallout 4? Only options you have basically in Fallout 4 are No, Yes, Sarcastic and Bye. I think that is lazy and boring game development. You can't really roleplay your (voiced) character when you have fixed answers.

I can enjoy my time with older and newer games, it does not matter what kind they are if gameplay and overall atmosphere is done right. It's not only about childhood nostalgia, I have always liked older games more than "new generation". Game companies just rarely make the same kind of games they used to when I was a child / youngster.

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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyWed Oct 16, 2019 11:40 pm

Dude, I have played turn based isometric RPGs and the combat system is bad even by those standards.

Quote :
I think you are just nitpicking about the game or you are just spoiled by newer games

Dude, do you know what that sounds like? Like some old guy working on his typewriter scoffing at a young guy with a laptop going "Bah, these youths. In my day we didn't have fancy spellchecking devices. We actually did the job we were supposed to do!"

Quote :
You have played Fallout: New Vegas, so you must know the basics how skills, traits and SPECIAL works and if you click on anything you are given the basic information about the stats what they do.

Except it doesn't. In NV, if you read the description for "Bloody Mess" it says "+5% damage and enemies often explode". OK, that's a clear explanation. in FO2 the same trait says "People around you die in gory ways and you can visualize the worst ways for someone to die". OK... WTF does that mean? Do I get a bonus to damage? Does it affect the dialogue? Does it affect the way I fight?

Here's another example. The sex appeal trait. "You have that something. Members of the other gender like you. Members of the same gender are jealous of you." Does the game include sex? Does that open dialogue options? Do I get better prices? Better disposition? What does it do?

There's one skill called doctor and one skill called first aid. What is the difference between the two? No idea. There's a skill called gambling. How exactly does that work? I thought gambling was affected by luck. And the list goes on and on.

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If you actually paid any attention and explored in Klamath, you should know that Vic can be found at the Den, your next destination.

Dude, let's leave aside the fact that I shouldn't have to play detective to find out something so basic (because I know some people actually love that). I did tried talking with the NPCs and I all got was the same "Why don't you just go back to your tribe?" bullshit from every single person. Dear god, I thought Oblivion NPCs were limited. Only exception was the town crier and that moron Torr. I'm sure that after maybe half hour of asking around I would have found that out, but by the time I came across the vertibird I was so fed up with it that I just didn't bother.

Quote :
And you can play as true pacifist if you want, if you have high speech you can talk your way from almost everything, you can also skip the fight with the door guardian inside the Arroyo temple by talking.

Yes, I did that. When I finally reached the guardian after about 5 tries because my character wasn't good at fighting and you have to fight your way through to react the guardian in the first place.

Quote :
Only options you have basically in Fallout 4 are No, Yes, Sarcastic and Bye.

Oh, come on. No, they're not. That's a meme. I agree that it would have been nice to have a few more dialogue choices, but it's far from that.

Quote :
It's not only about childhood nostalgia, I have always liked older games more than "new generation". Game companies just rarely make the same kind of games they used to when I was a child / youngster.


That, what you're describing, the "everything was better in the old days" attitude, is literally childhood nostalgia.
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The Rabid Dog

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 7:24 am

Bruh, yeah the originals might have been too rough around the edges, "complex", "niche" and all that stuff, but still, fuck Fallout 4 and Bethesda.


And before anyone gets hot heated, this is my opinion and it doesn't represent the opinions of the staff.

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c4in

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 7:41 am

Quote :
Dude, do you know what that sounds like? Like some old guy working on his typewriter scoffing at a young guy with a laptop going "Bah, these youths. In my day we didn't have fancy spellchecking devices. We actually did the job we were supposed to do!"

That is what came into my mind. If you are expecting the same features the most games has today and do not adjust to them accordingly what Fallout 2 has to offer. What you are complaining about are pretty small things. I understand though that you don't have to like everything.

Quote :
Except it doesn't. In NV, if you read the description for "Bloody Mess" it says "+5% damage and enemies often explode". OK, that's a clear explanation. in FO2 the same trait says "People around you die in gory ways and you can visualize the worst ways for someone to die". OK... WTF does that mean? Do I get a bonus to damage? Does it affect the dialogue? Does it affect the way I fight?

Here's another example. The sex appeal trait. "You have that something. Members of the other gender like you. Members of the same gender are jealous of you." Does the game include sex? Does that open dialogue options? Do I get better prices? Better disposition? What does it do?

There's one skill called doctor and one skill called first aid. What is the difference between the two? No idea. There's a skill called gambling. How exactly does that work? I thought gambling was affected by luck. And the list goes on and on.
 

If I were uncertain about some things, personally I would look them up from the Internet, fallout.fandom.com is your friend. Bloody Mess does exactly as it's described, "you always see the worst way a person can die", nothing else. You can deduce from Sex Appeal's description that it improves dialogue with the opposite sex and worsens with the same sex. You can also have sex in this game. Doctor is basically for healing crippled limbs and First Aid is for healing. Though they are both pretty useless skills when you have Stimpaks / doctor's bag / first aid kit. Gambling skill affects your winning percent when playing with slot machines and dice games. When you have high enough gambling, you can have unlimited amount of money. It's not really that hard to understand the game.

Quote :
Dude, let's leave aside the fact that I shouldn't have to play detective to find out something so basic (because I know some people actually love that). I did tried talking with the NPCs and I all got was the same "Why don't you just go back to your tribe?" bullshit from every single person. Dear god, I thought Oblivion NPCs were limited. Only exception was the town crier and that moron Torr. I'm sure that after maybe half hour of asking around I would have found that out, but by the time I came across the vertibird I was so fed up with it that I just didn't bother.
 

That Vic quest is 100% optional by the way, by finding him and completing the quest you can get him as a follower. Like I mentioned earlier, Fallout 2 is not a linear game and you can choose what to do. I would rather figure out how the game works and do whatever else rather than stress about one single quest.

Quote :
Oh, come on. No, they're not. That's a meme. I agree that it would have been nice to have a few more dialogue choices, but it's far from that.

I was just exaggerating, but it seems you got my point.

Quote :
That, what you're describing, the "everything was better in the old days" attitude, is literally childhood nostalgia.

Don't put words in my mouth, I don't think everything was better back then and I didn't even say that. What I meant that companies rarely makes good games in certain categories, isometric RPGs like Fallout 1 and 2 or turn-based strategy like Heroes of Might and Magic 2 and 3. Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come: Deliverance are also one of my the most favourite games.

@The Rabid Dog Damn. And I thought that all the staff are single entity Thinking .

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The Rabid Dog

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 10:30 am

I've gotta keep things that way, many issues have happened before that some members feel that because one staff memeber says x thing to another member they feel personally attacked by the "staff" and escalates to the point of calling us all nazis, as a moderator if i'm saying something in the tone i said i have to remind people that it is MY OWN opinion (even if that's obvious) not the staff's, i might have shitty tastes and crappy points of view but that's on me, not my fellow staff members.

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c4in

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 11:32 am

It's funny that some people really think that way, they kind of forgets that you are individuals too. Before someone asks, that my comment about the staff was sarcasm tongue .

Ok, enough of this off-topic.

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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 5:18 pm

@The Rabid Dog Man, I evaluate games based on how much fun I have playing, which I think it's ultimately the most important. I've never had more fun with a Fallout game than FO4. Yeah, it's not perfect and whatever you want. It's a ton of fun to play.

@c4in

Quote :
If you are expecting the same features the most games has today and do not adjust to them accordingly what Fallout 2 has to offer.

Man, I said at the beginning I don't hold the fact that is old against it. And btw, I didn't start playing because I was trying to prove anything. I genuinely wanted to test all the stuff that people were telling me. What I found is that FO2 is not a game, it's a chore. I have genuinely been far more entertained playing flash games.

Quote :
If I were uncertain about some things, personally I would look them up from the Internet


OK, that goes to the core of it. I shouldn't have to do research in order to play a game. I will occasionally go to the wiki if I'm stuck, but if I have to check the wiki every 5 seconds that's just infuriating.

Quote :
Bloody Mess does exactly as it's described, "you always see the worst way a person can die", nothing else. You can deduce from Sex Appeal's description that it improves dialogue with the opposite sex and worsens with the same sex. You can also have sex in this game. Doctor is basically for healing crippled limbs and First Aid is for healing. Though they are both pretty useless skills when you have Stimpaks / doctor's bag / first aid kit. Gambling skill affects your winning percent when playing with slot machines and dice games. When you have high enough gambling, you can have unlimited amount of money. It's not really that hard to understand the game.

Dude, of course you can tell me exactly what they do, you've played the game who knows how many times. When I'm playing for the first time, there's no way to tell what half of the stuff does. "You always see the worst way a person can die"... I still don't know what that means. What effect does that have in the game? The sex appeal thing I could deduce that it will give me some bonus when talking to women, but still... Is it a dialogue thing (like the lady killer in NV)? Does it affect quests? Does it affect trade? Does it work only in specific scenarios, or now every chick in the game will love me and every dude will hate me? And when it comes to gambling, dice and slot machines don't require any skill in real life, so how does it work exactly? If I have a high gambling skill I will win more money? Then what is the point of luck? Do those complement each other? Do they cancel each other? If I have a high gambling skill but low luck how would that work?

I'm sure that if I put 30 hours into the game I can figure it out. But why would I spend that amount of time just trying to figure the basics?

Quote :
That Vic quest is 100% optional by the way, by finding him and completing the quest you can get him as a follower. Like I mentioned earlier, Fallout 2 is not a linear game and you can choose what to do. I would rather figure out how the game works and do whatever else rather than stress about one single quest.

That's not the point. Quests are always optional.

Quote :
I was just exaggerating, but it seems you got my point.

Your original point was that dialogue was better in FO2. It's not. I disagree with the way they did the dialogue in FO4 but simply because I think having always 4 dialogue options is not the best way to go. There are conversations that merit having more options. But the quality of the dialogue itself is about the same, because that meme going around that FO4 dialogue is basically Yes, No, sarcastic and bye, is just that, a meme.

Also, a game is not good based on the amount of dialogue there is. I'm down for having good dialogue, absolutely. But reading tons and tons of dialogue is not what makes a game fun.

Quote :
Don't put words in my mouth, I don't think everything was better back then and I didn't even say that. What I meant that companies rarely makes good games in certain categories, isometric RPGs like Fallout 1 and 2 or turn-based strategy like Heroes of Might and Magic 2 and 3. Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come: Deliverance are also one of my the most favourite games.

OK, fair enough. But to be fair, what you wrote did seem to mean that.
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c4in

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptySat Oct 19, 2019 6:46 pm

@gavin gold One more thing about dialogue. There is more depth in building the story and knowing the characters more if you have more dialogue options like you have in Fallout 2. Though it's a matter of personal preference if you like to read or not. But for me it makes the game more interesting since I like the lore behind it.

But, you do as you will and mind your own things. There is really no point to argue much further.

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptySun Oct 20, 2019 1:52 am

So here's the problem you seem to have- older RPG's are not for you, which is a shame, but not all that uncommon.

Older RPG's were built around tabletop games where the players knew very little and the DM knew almost everything, you weren't there to create a powerful character or to triumph over your foes, but to experience a story driven by you're character and the skills that they acquire along their adventure. Skills, attributes, and perks are kept to simple descriptions because your choices surrounding them should make sense in regards to your character as they are, not to what you want them to eventually be. You're character is grounded in the world, not inserted like in modern RPG's (including fnv) and the modern between player and avatar is kept as thin as possible. In a way, you're more of a writer and actor in older RPG's than you are a player, you travel the landscape instead of exploring it, you struggle instead of fight, and you have conversations instead of dominating them. Fallout 2 is one of my favorite games, not stooped in nostalgia because my first fallout was also NV. 2 is an experience to be worked through and not a ride for you to just sit back and watch as it unfolds before you. I'm trying not to sound condescending, I promise, but I'm gonna have to drop the facade here for a second.

You're wrong about the Diologue. Every character is distinct, instead of the NPC's having a writing style to adhere to, they all have different personalities, even within factions, all of the characters are their own people. I can think of three people from the first village that I remember well, I can't do the same for the brotherhood in FNV, or for the tops, or the legion, etc. etc.

I'm not going to tackle every critique you have of the game, they're really subjective, for example, I like the combat system. I prefer having a good chance to miss when the character is using a weapon they're not familiar with, even if it's melee, you try going out into the forest with a long spear and trying to hit a rat. That being said, I understand not wanting to worry about that, but to say it's objectively bad isn't accurate.

That being said, it definitely has it's flaws, mostly related to bugs IMO, but the entry fee is also steep. New players can have a hard time biting into it's meat because of it's tough outer skin. If you are still interested in getting into it, I recommend this guide:
https://fallout.fandom.com/zh/wiki/The_Nearly_Ultimate_Fallout_2_Guide
and this walkthrough:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcbRqKwCSy0
and a few tips from someone who's played it a handful of times.
1. USE THE RESTORATION PROJECT:https://falloutmods.fandom.com/wiki/Killap%27s_Fallout_2_Restoration_Project
It fixes bugs, adds tons of new contents, and brings some QOL stuff as well.
2. Save frequently in different spots
even with the RP the engine it was built in means that saving over one save means that it becomes progressively more likely to become corrupt. A corrupt save back then is even worse than one today, so avoid at all costs. You can save over older saves later on and you have far more save slots than you need to get through the game.
3. shift highlights items
4. use vats, aim for the eyes if you can, but groin shots are funny and limb shots are very useful
5. you will die.
6. You will have the chance to get a car. You are going to want this car.
7. you are going to want companions, they will save your life.
8. Seriously, you are going to die.
9. Luck can get you through some insane battles.
10. Energy weapons are the most powerful weapons in the game, a plasma pistol can and will repeatedly outperform a mini-gun.
11. Range defines accuracy and damage, A sniper rifle will hit harder and more frequently farther away, but a shotgun shell to the mouth at point blank will kill most things, if you can get close and still live.
12. Manipulate your action points to your favor, if you can put some distance between you and an enemy you failed to kill, it can save your life.
13. traveling works differently, it takes time and occurs on the map screen with random encounters. you can stop anywhere and escape from any encounter, but if you find a specific zone full of pariah corpses and a pariah dog: RUN.
14. if the dog follows you, it is technically a free companion and makes the game very interesting... but you should probably kill it. Keep hitting it, it will die, eventually.
And that's it. I recommend you try Morrowind if you find that FO2 still isn't for you, since it's also an older RPG but with a few more up to date features that shaped the fallout that you are more familiar with.

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c4in

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptySun Oct 20, 2019 9:06 am

The Restoration Project is pretty much necessary if you are going to play Fallout 2, since it fixes a lot of bugs. Including "game breaking" bugs like your car disappearing, except the trunk. It does not really break your game, but will make your life harder.

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptySun Oct 20, 2019 9:27 am

Maybe the game just isn't for you and that's alright. I know some people who aren't fans of Final Fantasy VII from the ps1 and that's alright too. Imo its a great thing that some old games from before are much easier to get into now and enticing to try out because of the changes the devs. I'm well aware of the rift between the old fallout fans and the new ones, but honestly if Fallout 3 wasn't created the game series would have died out and a lot of us in this site wouldn't be here in the first place. Play what you love and love what you play!
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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptySun Oct 20, 2019 12:25 pm

It comes from a day when there weren't generally in-game tutorials, it was assumed people would read the instructions. Games used to be in boxes with big fat manuals. Times have really changed in that regard. Still, you choose your stats like strength, then choose three tag skills. Not too different from New Vegas. Moving and shooting or doing anything else require action points, and you can look up on your character sheet how many you have to use each turn. Thats pretty much the system in a nutshell.

Its dialogue is close to new vegas, with skill checks and charisma and speech and intelligence making a huge, huge, HUGE difference, but far more-so than new vegas. The dialogue system might be the best and most complex and meaningful ever implemented in any game, ever. Only New Vegas has come as close, I think.

If you died in combat, can you go in a different direction, try something else? Combat isn't levelled to you, it's location based so it doesn't hold your hand and give you a free, safe ride like some modern games. Were you using a weapon that you had a skill in? Don't use weapons that you don't know how to use. That's very, very unsafe at low levels. If you made a pacifist character (no weapon skills) then you're going to have to play as a pacifist, and try to stick to safe places, and find companions -- never, ever, ever give them a full-automatic weapon, never ever.

It sounds like a very strange bug if you offered someone the price of a gun and got rejected. In all my years I don't recall seeing that in that game.
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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptySun Oct 20, 2019 3:34 pm

Gotta say I loved Fallout 2.

Reading this makes me think your biggest issue is the lack of direction which is kind of typical in older games, especially RPGs. That said, this entire thing feels typical of someone who has jumped into a very complex iso RPG without even bothering to look up the basics or read a tutorial. Yeah, doctor and first aid are different skills, and there's a ton of guides and manuals online that will explain the various differences between the two. Without getting too heated, you really have enough time to write this post but not read one of them?

That said, "dialogue is bland and boring" is getting dangerously close to triggering™ me so I'm not gonna touch that with a barge pole. I'm just gonna leave this here...


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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptySun Oct 20, 2019 5:16 pm

@IRORIEH @Sirdanest @njmanga097 @c4in @Screw4ff

OK, let's take it one by one.

- I can agree that maybe the genre is just not for me. Different people like different things and that's fine. Having said that I stand by my original statement which is, I gave the game a go to get a feeling of the old days, and from my perspective, I find the games have been progressively getting better in every aspect. I didn't find anything that would make me want to go back.

- I appreciate everyone, especially Screw4ff, taking the time to write and explain how I can enjoy the game, and I know it's frustrating when you feel someone just isn't getting it, but truthfully, when I say it was the most boring, excruciating, infuriating experience I've had with a game, I'm not trying to be dramatic. I really have no interest in dealing with that ever again.

- I think there's a pretty important difference in the way I approach games to the way some of you do. I know I could look it up online and spend some time reading tutorials and I could get the hang of it, but that's not what I think a game ought to be. That's work, that's doing research. A game ought to be intuitive.

- When it comes to dialogue, I completely disagree. I'm not trying to trigger anyone, lol, but I don't think that just because something is overly complex that makes it good or interesting. I don't find that having the enclave soldier throw a ton of completely inconsequential, overly-verbose lines makes the dialogue good. Good dialogue is not getting pissed off and screaming the word "fuck" 100 times. It's not about lame jokes or obscure references. Good dialogue moves the plot forward, it reveals important details about the characters, it gives personality to the world, and it does so without becoming pace-killing bastards. Having good dialogue is not about having 10000 lines, it's about making the lines you have memorable.  

Quote :
Energy weapons are the most powerful weapons in the game, a plasma pistol can and will repeatedly outperform a mini-gun.

- As they should be. I don't know why Beth decided to nerf them.
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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptySun Oct 20, 2019 11:04 pm

I'm not so much as triggered as a little confused. I should probably let it go though, and not pester you, because we like what we like.
But if you've played New Vegas, then, the big difference with fallout 2 is the isometric, old graphics and the turn-based combat, and the over-world travel map. The dialogue system that has skill checks, your various skills (three which start tagged and start higher), stats like strength and intelligence... they're all pretty much the same thing between New Vegas and Fallout 2, with a few small changes, like energy weapons being godlike semi-legendary weapons in fallout 2. I'm stumped, trying to figure out any other major differences.

Maybe if you're good at shooters, you could probably survive with any character build in New Vegas by compensating for the lack of combat-related character skills and stats with your own reflexes and gaming skills...
But in fallout 2, since your own reflexes don't matter, character skills and stats are king. Computer rpgs used to be trying to (more or less) imitate the tabletop dice and paper games like dungeons and dragons.
That means you could make a completely worthless character who has no chance of surviving in Fallout 2. If your first level character tags energy weapons, repair, and barter... you're dead. You're not going to win on your first playthrough. I'd say, zero percent chance of winning without walkthroughs, a hell of a lot of luck and experienced player advice. I suppose that could be counted as a flaw, because it certainly doesn't warn you "You just created a worthless character and are utterly doomed."
Other than that -- one of the reasons some of us liked New Vegas is that it stuck to the old-school fallouts better than fallout 3 did.
It's also completely and totally normal to die in games from the 90's. utterly normal. You try again, a different tactic, different direction. If you went north from goodsprings at 1st level, the deathclaws or cazadores rip you limb from limb probably, so you reload and try a different direction. Fallout 2 is a lot like that, and can be merciless if you find yourself unknowingly racing across the map toward the endgame area by bad luck. You'll be blasted off the planet by that endgame content, it won't level itself down to be killable at 1st level.
It's easiest to make a character who will either be a combat monster, or someone with a ton of friends. I've won with either of those, or even a combo of the two. There are other ways to win that are a little harder, like a thief who steals everything that isn't nailed down and ends up rich and well-equipped (that was fun but harder), but those two basics are good, time-tested archetypes. By endgame, my combat-monster was one-shotting almost anyone with unarmed combat (I was using power armor and a power fist too, but still, wow.)
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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyMon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am

@Sirdanest I wan't saying that because of you, lol. Irorieh mentioned that my comment about the dialogue was dangerously close to triggering him.

So, NV has good dialogue, generally speaking. There's moments where it gets painfully verbose, and it bores the daylights out of me. Nevertheless, they made complex and interesting characters and some of the lines are fantastic. The thing that always bothers me about these is the fact that Beth and Obsidian have trouble actually integrating the dialogue into the gameplay, rather than having the dialogue be something that breaks the pace of the game. I hate having to stop and hear the characters give me a speech. I do like the way your skills change the way conversations go.

BUT, I don't play NV to listen to the dialogue. The devs are not that great writers. I like NV because it's fun. Getting inside a high tech mechanical suit and burning savages and abominations to a crisp is fun. I like FO4 better because it's even more fun. There's just nothing fun about FO2. And it's not just the combat because I've played games with the turn-based combat system before and I have enjoyed them. But I found the whole format of the game atrocious.

Just for the record. I wanted to make a character that was bad at fighting because I was testing the idea you could roleplay as any character even a scientist or a pacifist. It's not true.
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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyMon Oct 21, 2019 5:53 am

Okay guys, so before I start I just wanna say I was joking about the triggered part. I was kind of hoping putting a trademark sign behind the word might be a big hint, but things like sarcasm are often lost on the internet. Honestly I didn't want to get into the argument about dialogue because it's one I'm really tired of... But I will.

Okay so "good" dialogue has nothing to do with advancing the plot like you say. In fact, dialogue that only advances the plot is forced exposition, which is the opposite of good dialogue. Good dialogue builds a sense of world and character, and creates immersion for the viewer. Take Tarantino for example, his films are praised for their dialogue yet he frequently has scenes where characters discuss stuff that couldn't have less to do with the plot but build a sense of world and character that we wouldn't get otherwise. It lets us see that the world is bigger than just this narrative. Case in point the scene I linked. The boring life of an Enclave soldier. He's just a guy in power armour working what seems to be a fairly mundane desk job, moaning about politics. He's a person who exists in this world, not just a faceless bad guy to shoot at. He has a personality and honestly it leads to a pretty funny conversation. At least I thought so. When else do we get a little window into the daily life and thoughts of an Enclave soldier, other than the Remnants?

True it also has little do with the amount of lines and profanity but matters how well they're written. But there are many clever lines and moments in Fallout 2. Not to mention the variety in player response. One thing I truly do hate (this one is serious btw) is the dialogue wheel. 3 choices, angry, friendly, funny, that all lead to the same conclusion. It's so bland and generic. Say what you will, but the dialogue in this game has attitude and personality. There are some pretty savage responses, and some genuinely funny quotes for both the player and NPC's.

That said if you don't like dialogue, you don't like dialogue. I don't get why you'd play an RPG which is entirely story driven and dialogue heavy in that case, but you do you. If you just want to go around shooting stuff and getting in power armour, then this game certainly isn't for you, in the same way that Fallout 4 isn't for me. But again to your final comment, I can only say you come into a very complex game with no prior knowledge of how to build your character or what any of the stats mean and then when you don't know what to do you say "this game sucks" and storm off to write an angry review. I don't want to sound overly critical, but I think with most games, especially older ones, and especially RPGs, you're going to find this. Games have become increasingly more simplistic and hold your hand to the 9th degree. Some people like that, some people don't. Try playing Morrowind or an older TES title and you'll see the same thing.

You can't sit around and say you can't do something and it's not true because you don't know how to do it. You absolutely can do pacifist and negotiation runs of fallout 2. Again just because you don't know how, it doesn't mean you can't.

Sorry if I sound a little condescending here, it's just this is the exact same argument I've had half a dozen times, and the most common theme is that they aren't enough like the new games, or it becomes painfully obvious that the person commenting wants fallout as a shooter, not an rpg.

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyMon Oct 21, 2019 6:17 pm

@IRORIEH When I think about good dialogue in a game, I think about Bioshock. It's concise, it's well written, and it is always important because it always adds something to the plot, to the world or to the characters. Dialogue that has absolutely no purpose and adds nothing to any of those is just the devs jerking themselves off to how smart they think they are.

Think about it this way, people can generally agree that realism in games is a good thing (if there's one thing you can always count on is people complaining that x mechanic doesn't make sense, or it's too gamey, or that it's wrong because it doesn't mirror the way it happens in real life), but if I gave you a game where you have to sit for hours to file taxes, would that be fun? No, there's such a thing as becoming too realistic. Similarly, dialogue that is complex and intricate is a good thing, when the protagonists do it, because it serves a purpose. If every character in the game is just waiting to give you a speech, that's both pointless and tiresome.

By the way, and here's why I say the devs are not that great at writing, people have to learn to get to the point. Just because what you're saying is interesting doesn't mean you can take 2 hours to get it out. I can't tell you how many times I was playing NV and going through some endless pointless dialogue going "JUST SHUT THE HELL UP AND GET TO THE IMPORTANT PART". Those scientists at Big Mt in particular are insufferable.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about what some random guy behind a desk thinks. I'm not trying to be rude here or anything, I just genuinely don't care.

Now, to your other question, I started playing simply because people told me it was good and I wanted to give it a try; I'll give almost anything a try. And I went in with an open mind. In fact, I wanted it to be fun; I like the franchise. And I gave it like 10 tries before rage quitting.

But I will defend my final statement. You can't roleplay as a pacifist. You can in the sense that it is possible for you to make that character, but you will get eviscerated, because there's as much combat as there is in any other game. If your character isn't good at fighting, you're screwed. For you to be able to play as a pacifist or a scientist or something like that, you'd have to be able to bypass combat altogether.

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PostSubject: Re: So I gave Fallout 2 a go...   So I gave Fallout 2 a go... EmptyMon Oct 21, 2019 6:38 pm

@gavin gold wrote:
But I will defend my final statement. You can't roleplay as a pacifist. You can in the sense that it is possible for you to make that character, but you will get eviscerated, because there's as much combat as there is in any other game. If your character isn't good at fighting, you're screwed. For you to be able to play as a pacifist or a scientist or something like that, you'd have to be able to bypass combat altogether.

How can you be so sure if you haven't even played further than Klamath? If you get attacked in random encounter you can run pretty easily, unless you are facing Enclave or pack of people with guns. If you die, restart.

But in locations you can either fight or talk your way out of it, there are few speech checks that if you fail you have to fight. You can finish the game  by not tagging any of the combat skills. Though it's not suggested for first time players.

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