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 Know New Vegas well? I need your help.

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TheHermit

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PostSubject: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 1:28 am

WARNING - LONG POST

Hey all,

I need those of you with extensive knowledge of New Vegas to help me out. If you have played and completed the game numerous times and know the reputation system, quests and their outcomes like the back of your hand, then please chime in and give me your figurative two cents. I'll give all those that provide useful information a +1 rep point.

As many of you know, I've been working off and on on a companion mod named Mallory for ages. Quite frankly, the only reason there hasn't been a release yet is because I've gone through 4 voice actors. I finally settled on one last February, but she still hasn't completed all of the lines yet -- just the way it is. It'll be done soon enough. Anyway... during that time, some of the intro transcript started to bug me and so I'm now in the process of rewriting it and tidying it up. However, the way in which I want to do it requires that I know a little more about the faction quest arcs and the faction reputation system.

Now, believe it or not, I've NEVER completed Fallout New Vegas. The furthest I've gotten was the 3rd quest of the Yes Man/independent quest arc. So yeah, there are certain aspects of the game that I'm just totally unaware of. Instead of speed running through it, I thought it best to ask here since I reckon most of you have completed FNV a dozen or more times.

So, much like several of the vanilla companions: Boone, Veronica and (I think) Arcade Gannon, I want Mallory to respond to the player's faction reputation. Boone, for example, will warn you if you gain fame greater than neutral with the Legion and will seemingly leave you if it increases to the next range. This information is available on the Fallout Wikia, but it doesn't go into enough detail to be helpful. I've also never had Boone as a companion so I haven't seen this in action. Knowing exactly how this works would help me plan the intro and later interaction with the player much more easily.

Mallory is a character designed for an independent playthrough. This won't change. What I want for Mallory is this: you meet her for the first time > talk to her > tell her you're the courier > then, depending on your faction reputations, there will be 3 paths:

* If NCR Reputation 'greater than' neutral, Mallory will become angry and refuse to talk any further.*
* If Legion Reputation 'greater than' neutral, Mallory will become angry and refuse to talk any further.*
* If neither of the above (i.e. It's neutral or lower) she'll continue talking to you so you can eventually hire her.**

*if player comes back at later point and reputation is neutral or below, Mallory will talk to you again so that you can hire her.

**if you're under level 5 at this point, there will be a slightly varied response to present the player as a fairly unknown entity who has yet to make a name for themselves.

Once Mallory is hired, if for some reason your reputation with NCR/Legion increases beyond neutral she will give you a warning. If it increases another tier she will leave your service and never speak to you again.

What I haven't decided yet, and what I would like some feedback on is, if there is a scenario where your reputation with Legion is neutral but your reputation with NCR goes from neutral to the first tier of fame with them (where you'll get your first warning), should an increase Legion rep to the first tier cause her to leave, or should she only leave when one of the factions reaches the second tier of fame? I'm leaning towards the latter method, but what I'd like to do is follow the vanilla setup for Boone as much as possible, but so it's dependant on two factions reps, not just one. If someone could elaborate on how this works in-game then please leave a comment.

It is my understanding that Boone's reaction to the player's fame with the Legion could be circumnavigated if you left him in the Lucky 38, gained fame with them, then re-hired him -- He could effectively join you at the 'point if no return' and fight with you alongside the Legion. If this is the case, I would like to make a failsafe for Mallory where she'll also leave your service if the 'point if no return' quest is completed for either the NCR or Legion. What I need to know is WHICH quests are the 'point of no return' quests for the two factions? It's not clear from the Wikia. It'd also be nice to know which quest for Mr House is the last one before you can't change sides.

Knowing which is the best method and the answers to these questions will help me write dialogue appropriately so I don't miss anything.

I hope I made things clear and easy to follow. If there's anything I haven't explained well, please let me know. Look forward to your replies.

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Constable Canada

Constable Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 4:29 am

I do recall hearing about this a while back and I'm glad to know how the progress is going. As for the point of no return quest for each faction it all derives from the completion of: "You'll know it when it happens". After completing that quest, depending on your faction of choice their leaders will give you the option to proceed or not. After that, these quests are initiated after you say you are ready to finish it: Eureka!(NCR) Veni, Vidi, Vici(Legion) No Gods No Masters (Independent) All Or Nothing(House).

Now for my opinion of how to do her rep system, I think you should give players a bit of chance instead of her bailing on them for having a slightly good reputation with a certain faction so maybe have it same way Boone does by giving them a couple of warning then leaving afterwards. There are a lot side quests and some main quests that improve your reputation with the NCR. The Legion however, I recall only the main quests with give you reputation with them. I hope this helps you and the progress of your mod . Also, anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Betterdeadthanred

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 4:56 am

Yeah I too think it's quite extreme to exclude everybody who did a few NCR missions. If anything, you should only be denied if you are Idolized by either Legion or NCR. As Constable said, even Boone who is a fierce Anti-Legion compagnion gives you the chance to redeem yourself a few times before leaving you.

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Eetterinakki

Eetterinakki

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 5:10 am

Yeah, definitely only make it so that she leaves you once you're Idolized

Since usually doing even one good thing or one quest for a faction makes you liked by them.

And you gain like for a faction for just helping their non-militant citizens, not necessarily helping them in their military affairs.

But to be Idolized you have to do several quests that benefit a faction, so that's a good marker.

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SixShooter

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 6:22 am

I gotta agree with the others here, limit the whole "Pissed off to the point of never talking to you or even leaving you" to if you get idolized by the NCR or Legion.

If you're looking for a reason to make her cool with that without altering her character too much, I'm sure she would get the logic behind using the other factions to further your own goals. Maybe a conversation at "Liked" to assure her that you aren't actually going with the NCR/Legion, you're just using them for their benefits for now?

I dunno, It's up to you, just my two cents TongueTril

(Maybe to convince her properly you'd need to have shown that you wanna go independent in the past? Like routing power everywhere in Helios One, etc.)

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TheHermit

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 1:41 pm

Thanks for the response, guys. There is a lot to take in here. Constable Canada mentioned the "you'll know it when it happens" quest. On paper that quest looks complicated as fuck. It also appears as though you can only be given the quest if you're following the NCR, Mr House, and Yes Man quest arcs. According to the  quest notes on the Wikia, The Legion quest line does not lead to this quest. The quest also looks as though it can be automatically failed if at the time you're given it your reputation with the NCR:

"It is possible to automatically and accidentally fail this quest before you take it. After you load Yes Man into Mr. House's computer, speak to him and he will tell you that there is a chance of the President being assassinated. If you have a mixed reputation (i.e. Wild Child) or negative reputation with the NCR, then there is no option to save the president later and any dialog box you choose will automatically cause you to fail the quest. If this occurs, revert to your last save and complete For the Republic, Part 2 before you continue on with any quest from Yes Man." ~ Fallout Wikia

This part I don't get. What would happen if it was failed? Would the game progress? Would you even receive the quest if you were negative rep with NCR and Legion, which could happen if you nuked both sides, for example? With that said, it's probably better if I make the quests before that the trigger for Mallory. It'll certainly be cleaner to implement as there are many things that could go wrong if I used "You'll know it..." as the trigger quest. As far as I know, these are:

NCR: For the Republic, Part 2
Mr House: The House Always Wins V
Legion: with Arizona Killer being the Legion equivalent of "You'll know it when it happens", I think the best trigger quest for Mallory to leave your services would be Et Tumor, Brute?

Do these seem like sensible choices? I personally think so. Especially if I take all of your advice with regards to reputation. It ties in nicely. I would like to mimic, more or less, the way Boone reacts both before hiring her and when she is hired.

"If the player has not yet recruited Boone, he will refuse to speak to the player if their overall NCR reputation is significantly below neutral, or if they have significant positive reputation with Caesar's Legion. The reputation can be temporarily swayed by wearing any NCR armor, allowing the player that faction's relations and reputation." ~ Fallout Wikia

Like Boone, I'll make it so that Mallory won't talk to you before hired for first time if your rep is significantly positive with either faction. However, If the player comes back and rep is below this 'significant' threshold with both factions, the player can try hiring her again. The key word in here is 'significantly'. What is that specifically? Is it 'liked' and would the mirror of that be 'hated'?

I like all of your ideas for having a warning at 'liked' for either faction and leaving at 'idolized'. It would indeed be less harsh on the player. But can anyone confirm exactly how Boone works? And what about all of the other reputations that are ambiguous, how does Boone react then, if at all?

@SixShooter, your suggestion about Helios One is a good one. I'll keep it in mind. She will make funny idle comments on a number of quests after you e completed them. Coming close to 2500+ lines of dialogue Haha!

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Betterdeadthanred

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 2:21 pm

Boone only reacts at Legion rep and NCR bad rep. If you go kill NCR troopers with him, he will help you, but trigger a conversation stating something like "I know the NCR isn't perfect but I served with those guys blabla dont kill them or we wil have a problem" where you can promise to try changing, kill him or have him removed from your service. If you promise to change but do it again, he will leave. Cassidy has a similar concept, but's triggered by having bad karma instead of bad rep.

Positive Legion rep will likewise trigger a conversation where you can kill him, promise to change, remove from service etc. Both Boone and Arcade have this Legion trigger.

tl;dr Working against a compagnions interests will first trigger a warning (which can lead to hostility - compagnion leaving you forever - or nothing). Continuing to work against his or her principles and your compagnion will leave you forever.

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Judge Redd

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 2:55 pm

I have to agree with some of the guys here Hermit. Like I am a big fan of Mallory as is, but I cant see myself wanting to play with someone who is just going to be pissed off at me if I am on good terms with factions I more often then not dont join in the end because I dont like either side. I still have a good relationship with them though but thats cuz I dont want to be shot on sight by the NCR. I mean look at Russel by Someguy, he doesnt like Legion or NCR with good reason. however, he doesnt judge you on that because in the end its your call.
Mall could be a bit abrasive towards your opinion on the faction but in the end your getting her into the strip and bringing her on an ass kicking adventure. No friends agree entirely on everything, so maybe make her a bit more understanding that your not going to try and change her mind but she shouldnt go shooting people willy nill.
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TheHermit

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 4:48 pm

@Betterdeadthanred wrote:
Boone only reacts at Legion rep and NCR bad rep. If you go kill NCR troopers with him, he will help you, but trigger a conversation stating something like "I know the NCR isn't perfect but I served with those guys blabla don’t kill them or we will have a problem" where you can promise to try changing, kill him or have him removed from your service. If you promise to change but do it again, he will leave. Cassidy has a similar concept, but's triggered by having bad karma instead of bad rep.
Positive Legion rep will likewise trigger a conversation where you can kill him, promise to change, remove from service etc. Both Boone and Arcade have this Legion trigger.
tl; dr Working against a companion’s interests will first trigger a warning (which can lead to hostility - companion leaving you forever - or nothing). Continuing to work against his or her principles and your companion will leave you forever.
 
Yes, and in this case, Mallory won’t have a problem will you killing NCR or Legion. I’ve decided that a warning conversation will only trigger if your rep with either faction reaches ‘Liked’ as others have suggested. And if it reaches Idolized, she leaves. Again, I haven’t played with Boone, so I’m not aware of the conversation you can have with him where you get some options, but I’d like it to work in the same way: She’ll ask you to stop supporting either side, if you promise her you’ll make amends she’ll stay with you unless you reach Idolized. The other option is: you’re at a disagreement and you can kill her, I suppose. Again, what I need to know is how it works for Boone behind the scenes? What point does he give you a first warning? Is it when NCR rep drops to below neutral or Legion rep increases to above neutral? I need to know specifics – not just ‘if you gain fame’, etc. Or does he only warn you if you kill someone from NCR faction? How does it work? Like I said, I know he reacts, I just need to know exactly how so I can mimic this behaviour in the GECK.
 
Incidentally, here are some of Boone’s lines regarding your reputation with NCR/Legion that I found on the Wikia:
 
“I've lost all respect for you.”
“If you're an enemy of the NCR, you're an enemy of mine. Get out of my sight.”
“If there's one thing I won't tolerate, it's working with some dog of the Legion. You've got some explaining to do.”
“I told you I wouldn't work against the NCR. I meant it.”
“I'm out of here.”
“Still helping the Legion. You're gonna get what's coming to you. I promise you that.”
“We're through working together.”
“Look, I know the NCR has problems, but I fought with those men. I'll be damned before I betray them.”
 
ZombieRedNeck wrote:
I have to agree with some of the guys here Hermit. Like I am a big fan of Mallory as is, but I can’t see myself wanting to play with someone who is just going to be pissed off at me if I am on good terms with factions I more often than not don’t join in the end because I don’t like either side. I still have a good relationship with them though but that’s cuz I don’t want to be shot on sight by the NCR. I mean look at Russel by Someguy, he doesn’t like Legion or NCR with good reason. however, he doesn’t judge you on that because in the end its your call.
Mall could be a bit abrasive towards your opinion on the faction but in the end, you’re getting her into the strip and bringing her on an ass kicking adventure. No friends agree entirely on everything, so maybe make her a bit more understanding that you’re not going to try and change her mind but she shouldn’t go shooting people willy-nilly.
 
Well, Mallory won’t be restrictive to anyone’s play style any more than Boone, Arcade or Cass is, but she will have principles of her own and won’t be as lenient as Russell. That’s just the way I want it and it's been designed this way from the beginning. Unfortunately, it would require a total rewrite to do what you're suggesting, which I’m not prepared to do as I’m close to completing.

She will be a companion intended for Independent playthrough much like Boone is intended for NCR playthrough and Cass for good karma playthrough – so yeah, she won’t be any more ‘restrictive’ than they are and this adds some re-play value for those of us that almost always side with NCR or Legion -- time to let go of any adoration you have for them Wink2 Of course, like the vanilla companions, the system isn’t perfect and can be exploited, so it may be that Mallory will ignore your reputation if you circumnavigate things like you can with Boone by leaving him in the Lucky 38. Again, she’ll only leave you if you reach Idolized with NCR or Legion, which is more than reasonable. What’s more, she doesn’t give a rat’s ass about The Strip TongueTril She thinks it’s a cesspool of high-muckety-muck types. I want her to react like she has some depth to her and not just say one thing and do another.

With respect to Someguy2000, I don’t think he ever intended for Russell to be all out against Legion and NCR - maybe for technical reasons too. I don't know, I just don't think that was his vision. Russell is more concerned with a vendetta of his own, whereas Mallory has a bit of a personal and gruesome history with the NCR and it just wouldn’t be right for her to support NCR cock suckage. Fortunately, I won’t be making her a gung-ho as Boone, meaning, she won’t be shooting Legion or NCR on site. She will only fire upon NPCs that are hostile to the player.

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LukaTheJawa

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 5:06 pm

I always get idiolized by either ncr or legion before going independent for the best rewards ( I like to see this as a double spy) so this might be annoying if she leaves you because of that , maybe add a high speech check so you can convince her to stay ?
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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 5:24 pm

The first warning is simply given when your rep with NCR is below Neutral/Mixed. Or Legion rep above Neutral/mixed (you get the idea.) It's their way of making sure you are staying on course.
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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 5:35 pm

Quote :
I always get idiolized by either ncr or legion before going independent for the best rewards ( I like to see this as a double spy) so this might be annoying if she leaves you because of that , maybe add a high speech check so you can convince her to stay ?

This is a good idea, yes. I can do that.

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Judge Redd

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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 7:17 pm

@TheHermit wrote:
Quote :
I always get idiolized by either ncr or legion before going independent for the best rewards ( I like to see this as a double spy) so this might be annoying if she leaves you because of that , maybe add a high speech check so you can convince her to stay ?

This is a good idea, yes. I can do that.

This is what I was actually trying to get at. Nothing too complex just make your point clear that your not on either side of the war, and you want independence rather than being under one flag. A speech check is a good way of doing that.
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PostSubject: Re: Know New Vegas well? I need your help.   Know New Vegas well? I need your help. EmptyFri Jan 06, 2017 7:31 pm

I've never heard of the automatic failing of that mission but I don't think it matters if you fail it or not. During the You'll know when it happens quest, it doesn't necessarily say Kimball needs to be saved. If he dies, the NCR will be a little pissed off at you yes. If you save him however, you will get a positive reputation with them. Either way you will proceed to the battle of Hoover dam. Also you saying she won't be gung-ho like Boone makes me all the more excited, I turned off killcams because of that. All that aside, I can't wait to try out this mod.

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