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 who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?

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Jarhead505



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:04 am

I love the ncr but with how thin they are I think the legion unless the ncr just used vertibirds and sent all the ncr rangers to the dam.
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XRhino



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:43 am

I Think the NCR would defeat the Legion because all the NCR would have to do is set up multiple Vet Rangers up in the area to pick off Legate Lanius and all of the other Legion soldiers. Also the NCR has "Heavy Troops" which are Ncr Troops in Power Armor with Mini-Guns, Just another reason the NCR would dominate over the Legion at Hoover Damn without the courier...

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:16 am

Probably Mr. House. I'm sure he had several contingencies should the Courier not pan out. Honorable mention goes to the NCR. As mighty as football pads and lawn-mower blades are, I think bullets win out. Also, a big part of the NCR's lack of progress was poor leadership. I'm sure if Oliver drug his feet for too much longer, he'd be replaced with someone more aggressive.
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MWguitarist



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:43 am

@jkdsh wrote:
Really? People are actually saying the legion would win?
They have what, two types of legionaries that carry guns and even then they're usually shotguns or handguns and the occasional hunting rifle? Yes, numbers are important, but, so is having an equalized amount of technology and weaponry. The NCR could literally send two vertibirds and the Legion would be boned, a heavily armored airborne vehicle with missiles and miniguns, that leather football armor will definitely save them from that, right? That leads into the next part, armor, NCR troops have everything from riot armor with what appears to be armor plating on the front to power armor, those swords would sure be effective against a literal walking tank...
The NCR has pretty much every type of weapon under the sun aside from energy weapons: .50 cals, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns, miniguns, large caliber handguns, shotguns, the legion uses powerfists, machetes, bumper swords, occasionally small arms, and ballistic fists. Aside from numbers, the Legion is entirely outclassed.

NCR Advantages:
1. Huge amounts of weapons.
2. Serious training.
3. Better armor.
4. Snipers.
5. Vertibirds.
6. The people of the Mojave Wasteland seem none to fond of the Legion.
7. They know the territory.
8. Better, bigger, weapons.

Legion Advantage:
1. Numbers.

True, just kind of funny to think with all this they have now, why have such a hard time with the legion to begin with. Plot progression is plot progression i guess for the sake of video game quests XD
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PoisonEliteGaming



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:28 am

@themaster96 wrote:
@PoisonEliteGaming wrote:
@jkdsh wrote:
Really? People are actually saying the legion would win?
They have what, two types of legionaries that carry guns and even then they're usually shotguns or handguns and the occasional hunting rifle? Yes, numbers are important, but, so is having an equalized amount of technology and weaponry. The NCR could literally send two vertibirds and the Legion would be boned, a heavily armored airborne vehicle with missiles and miniguns, that leather football armor will definitely save them from that, right? That leads into the next part, armor, NCR troops have everything from riot armor with what appears to be armor plating on the front to power armor, those swords would sure be effective against a literal walking tank...
The NCR has pretty much every type of weapon under the sun aside from energy weapons: .50 cals, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns, miniguns, large caliber handguns, shotguns, the legion uses powerfists, machetes, bumper swords, occasionally small arms, and ballistic fists. Aside from numbers, the Legion is entirely outclassed.



Yeah I really don't see the Legion ever winning, sure they're persistent but that doesn't do jack shit when you have missiles striking you and soldiers shooting you with rifles while the only protection you have on is football armor.

Like i said in a world with weapons of mass destruction numbers and persistency doesnt matter

Yeah, it's the equivalent over 100 men with no armor on and no weapons attacking 10 men with Enclave power armor on and miniguns.

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wotan



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:18 pm

@Grimmex wrote:
@mindstormer wrote:
Definitely the Legion. While the NCR is waging war with the Legion, they are also at war with the fiends and the raiders, which is draining the pockets of the NCR. The NCR also has a problem with their supply lines, soldiers aren't equipped well and they are on ration.

The NCR took it on them selfs to take care of refugees (like bitter springs). Doing this the NCR is wasting menpower and supplies.

While the NCR is fighting enemies from all kind off directions and is facing a lot of diverse problems, the Legion is regaining strenght and they are building up their forces again at the fort. I am sure that the NCR isn't able to repel another attack from the Legion, at least not if they continue to waste money on side issues.

Yeah, as much as i hate to agree (cause i side with the NCR or House), i feel as though you're right.

Aye, you have a point. The NCR can hardly keep up with the Legion - they have to cope with war weariness and overstetched supply lines. Furthermore, there are the Fiends and the escaped convicts and more. The Legion can just bolster their numbers with new blood from all the crazy raiders and local tribes they come across.
But should it come to the fact that Caesar dies (he does have a lethal brain tumor after all), the Legion will fall apart like a house of cards.
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AMOneEighty



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:36 am

That depends on whether or not the "intervention" means the whole Benny shooting you and you survive happens or not, if it was something like the Courier getting shot and dying, then maybe Benny would of won, or in that case Mr House, if the Courier just decided to leave with the chip then the Legion won, in any scenario in my opinion, the NCR would pretty much always lose, the only reason they won the first time was because they got the element of suprise, but they also took a hit themselves and sacrificed a lot of their men, something they couldn't of afforded to do.
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kravisl1



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:25 am

Without the courier's intervention at all I think the NCR would win, they did win the 1st battle, so chances are they would win the 2nd battle as well in my opinion, but Benny had some tricks up his sleeve as well, but I think the NCR would win Smile.
No offense to all of you Legion fans TongueTril
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AMOneEighty



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:44 am

Haha pro- Independence here, but I don't think they would of won, they won by a landslide during the first battle. During the course of the game there's clear signs that the NCR are not all that powerful in the Mojave, and without the Couriers intervention a lot of quests you do for the NCR  ("I Put A Spell On You", "Restoring Hope" etc) would of been in favor of the Legion and they would of beat the NCR before the battle even begun.
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xj427



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:00 am

The legion would win in the end the problem comes in when Caesar dies the legion could fall apart or worse civil war which would give time for the ncr to attack again Caesar would have to take Vegas fast and try and convince his soldier not to just fight for him but to fight for Rome (Vegas) just like the ancient Romans. the Romans fought for Rome not just there leader. The legion would have to do the same thing
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oldboy



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:20 am

@AMOneEighty wrote:
Haha pro- Independence here, but I don't think they would of won, they won by a landslide during the first battle. During the course of the game there's clear signs that the NCR are not all that powerful in the Mojave, and without the Couriers intervention a lot of quests you do for the NCR  ("I Put A Spell On You", "Restoring Hope" etc) would of been in favor of the Legion and they would of beat the NCR before the battle even begun.

True, and look what happened at the NCR Correctional Facility - a bunch of criminals(powder gangers) rebelled and took over the facility...did the NCR take it back? nope, they lacked manpower and the resources to do so.
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AMOneEighty



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:26 am

That's really how it all worked, the NCR in the Mojave anyway is a very weak faction, only making up for it in maybe numbers. Without the couriers aid, they would of been crushed by House/Legion
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oldboy



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:33 am

@jkdsh wrote:
Really? People are actually saying the legion would win?
They have what, two types of legionaries that carry guns and even then they're usually shotguns or handguns and the occasional hunting rifle? Yes, numbers are important, but, so is having an equalized amount of technology and weaponry. The NCR could literally send two vertibirds and the Legion would be boned, a heavily armored airborne vehicle with missiles and miniguns, that leather football armor will definitely save them from that, right? That leads into the next part, armor, NCR troops have everything from riot armor with what appears to be armor plating on the front to power armor, those swords would sure be effective against a literal walking tank...
The NCR has pretty much every type of weapon under the sun aside from energy weapons: .50 cals, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns, miniguns, large caliber handguns, shotguns, the legion uses powerfists, machetes, bumper swords, occasionally small arms, and ballistic fists. Aside from numbers, the Legion is entirely outclassed.

NCR Advantages:
1. Huge amounts of weapons.
2. Serious training.
3. Better armor.
4. Snipers.
5. Vertibirds.
6. The people of the Mojave Wasteland seem none to fond of the Legion.
7. They know the territory.
8. Better, bigger, weapons.

Legion Advantage:
1. Numbers.

Lets look at the korean war. when the chinese intervened they won through sheer numbers. i heard some of them didnt even have weapons...they literally had to pick up weapons from their dead comrades.

EDIT: allied forces had superior training and equipments and the chinese still managed to push them back.
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alonewolf003



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:46 am

@jkdsh wrote:
Really? People are actually saying the legion would win?
They have what, two types of legionaries that carry guns and even then they're usually shotguns or handguns and the occasional hunting rifle? Yes, numbers are important, but, so is having an equalized amount of technology and weaponry. The NCR could literally send two vertibirds and the Legion would be boned, a heavily armored airborne vehicle with missiles and miniguns, that leather football armor will definitely save them from that, right? That leads into the next part, armor, NCR troops have everything from riot armor with what appears to be armor plating on the front to power armor, those swords would sure be effective against a literal walking tank...
The NCR has pretty much every type of weapon under the sun aside from energy weapons: .50 cals, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns, miniguns, large caliber handguns, shotguns, the legion uses powerfists, machetes, bumper swords, occasionally small arms, and ballistic fists. Aside from numbers, the Legion is entirely outclassed.

NCR Advantages:
1. Huge amounts of weapons.
2. Serious training.
3. Better armor.
4. Snipers.
5. Vertibirds.
6. The people of the Mojave Wasteland seem none to fond of the Legion.
7. They know the territory.
8. Better, bigger, weapons.

Legion Advantage:
1. Numbers.
Let me adds them up for you and also fix some.


Spoiler:
 



To sums it up, both sides have obvious advantages and what not, but whoever they choose I can see their reasons. And I chose the Legion because, well, reasons stated above.

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brettozi13



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:20 pm

What y'all need to remember is that if certain events in the mojave didn't have the courier help with them then they would have got somebody else to do it instead because it still needs to be done. like the camp forlon hope which doesn't have an ending slide show etc.

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metallic0925



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:46 pm

I keep seeing a lot about NCR winning simply due to having more available firearms.  However, people seem to be overlooking the logistical nightmare the Mojave occupation is for the NCR.  The legion has a massive manpower and resource pool to draw from, whereas the NCR is in a significantly weaker position.  The NCR's ability to hold off the legion assault at the dam would last only as long as the resources it can muster for the fight, not even considering the possibilities of a break in morale or desertion.
 
I saw mention of heavy troopers with lmgs or miniguns and ranger snipers being a sort of trump card for the NCR.  But considering the NCR can barely equip its conscripts with proper armor, how many of these soldiers can it effectively field?  While an lmg provides more firepower for its size compared to the service rifles most troopers use, it also requires a significantly larger ammo pool to be effective.  Fielding its heaviest troopers in large numbers would severely stress NCR logistics.  Claiming NCR's assured victory assumes that the NCR's logistics are perfectly functioning to be able to fuel a large scale conflict.

Logistics becomes even more of an issue when you take into consideration the factions the legion has recruited to assist them in the Mojave, and other resistance the NCR has to face.  The legion has a focused goal, capture of the dam and breaking the NCR.  The NCR has to face the legion, police its assets in the strip, hold off the fiends, protect its trade routes, deal with the BoS, etc.  They only have so many troops, so as soon as the battle for the dam begins, its going to have to focus its efforts.  The NCR will have to begin moving men and resources continuously to the dam to mount its defense and be able to counterattack if the moment arises.  But with the planned Omerta revolt on the strip, the Khans making their move from the west, and the the aggressiveness of the fiends, the NCR is going to have its work cut out for itself defending these supply routes.

All and all,  I feel that the NCR just doesn't have the logistical capability to mount a successful defense of Hoover dam without courier intervention.  I'm not saying the legion will simply walk all over them.  The battle will be long and bloody, with the NCR probably holding out for a good while with heavy casualties on both sides.  But in the end, the NCR defenders are simply going to run out of supplies.  And I am not very confident in the combat ability of standard troopers who have run out of ammo.
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Cultist



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:22 pm

Caesar's Legion obviously, Legion doesn't retreat and doesn't depend on any type of drug for fighting, unlike the hussies from the NCR. But it ain't got do much as the tunnelers will come to the Mojave and shit will go down.

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AMOneEighty



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:06 pm

While I think someone else as Mr. New Vegas says "A civilian contractor" would help I don't think it would of had that much of an impact that the Courier did, I mean they talk about how he single handledly turned the tide against The Legion during an NCR play through
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alonewolf003



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:39 pm

@brettozi13 wrote:
What y'all need to remember is that if certain events in the mojave didn't have the courier help with them then they would have got somebody else to do it instead because it still needs to be done. like the camp forlon hope which doesn't have an ending slide show etc.

Unlikely to have a random guy shows up at Camp Forlorn Hope and willing to help those NCR guys out. That place is surrounded by Legion forces outside. They couldn't even bring supplies back to the camp remember? And if I remember right they didn't pay at all or very little. Not saying it's impossible but just unlikely, not everyone in the Mojave can be on the Courier's level of Messiah closed eyes smile.

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AMOneEighty



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:24 pm

That's really why everyone wants you to help them, because you can turn the side by yourself, even Cesaer/NCR can go "Yeah we know you basically ruined everything but you're so cool please join us it's all good"
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