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 who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?

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brettozi13



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:17 pm

But they're not just looking for external contracting i'm sure they would send troopers to do what you did it's just with your arrival they'd prefer to send someone else other than actual soldiers

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AMOneEighty



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:51 pm

The thing that makes it different is that they can't send troopers, they can't afford it, a lot of people who give you the quests often remark on how they're short on numbers and that they would send troops if they could. You not showing up means they could never get it done for that eason.
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Legend



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:21 pm

Honestly, it'd be nothing more than just another stalemate... and I do mean, a stalemate. See, the problem is the Legion and NCR went at it once already... and both sides were beaten back. NCR barely held the dam off, but didn't technically "win" anything more than a bit more time to prepare for the real fight. Barring any sort of realism that "one man could do it all", and that he did indeed die from the bullet that Benny shot him in the face with, he'd have no incentive to run away from the Courier (he's dead, remember?) Chances are, he most likely like a smart man would... send Yes Man to Fortification Hill to activate the Securitron forces... not before having dispatched house in a takeover of the Lucky 38. With this however... with a temporary loss of Securitron forces, it'd be rather easy for a riot to break out, and now you have too many people to contend with on the strip. Now, assuming a bunch of crazy Bandits get in... and with no bodyguards protecting Benny anymore... he'd be killed. Yes Man would've been killed as well because of the ruthlessness of Legion forces seeing a lone Securitron roaming the desert.

Now let's say roles are switched. Benny is still executed for trespass, and Yes Man is gunned down by bandits as he has no "army" to back him up... and he has no army as Benny doesn't make it to Fortification Hill. As House would put it, "Centuries of preparation.... so much good... undone..."

Legion vs NCR? NCR has bullets, Legion has blades. NCR has only a few men to spare for those blades, and the Legion have the bodies to accommodate the bullets. BOTH lack extra help, since the Courier died before he could make friends with the Wastelanders, so those people are still doing their own thing (Nellis people have no bomber for example, Brotherhood of Steel is still cowering in the dirt, etc.)

At the end of the day though, it's down to who wants the dam more. Legion may have the bodies, but their deterioration into an empirical society left them all the stupider, with only one man being the wiser. He'd tell them what to do yeah... but when you employ idiots, you reap the armies of idiots. Let them run into a hailstorm of bullets... if some make it through, well; you cut down a couple of the NCR before you get eliminated. On the NCR side, those getting cut down thin the numbers of bullets being thrown. They have their assigned spots as any sort of modern military force would have, and you have some protection that way... so for them, it's about conserving what you got.

End of the battle however leaves both with barely any men, barely any munitions for those men, and barely any willpower. They both lose, and the dam remains undisturbed... until it eventually gets taken over by some entrepreneur, or a group of raiders. It's essentially left to rot as an ancient relic of the Pre-War days.

This is my take on it anyway. TL;DR?

Too many blades, not enough bodies, too many bullets, plenty of bodies, stress, demoralization...

Nobody Wins.

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war1915



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:41 am

I would Say Legion, because there force is just well more trained and NCR is basically fighting with sticks and stones.

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ayylmao22



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:56 am

@BlackZeroVB wrote:
Probably Mr. House. I'm sure he had several contingencies should the Courier not pan out. Honorable mention goes to the NCR. As mighty as football pads and lawn-mower blades are, I think bullets win out. Also, a big part of the NCR's lack of progress was poor leadership. I'm sure if Oliver drug his feet for too much longer, he'd be replaced with someone more aggressive.

This right here, if General Oliver was replaced with someone much more aggressive, then NCR would stomp on Legion like an ant.

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ayylmao22



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:59 am

@war1915 wrote:
I would Say Legion, because there force is just well more trained and NCR is basically fighting with sticks and stones.
>sticks and stones
Didn't know that rifles(marksmen, service which use 5.56mm) snipers(snipers and anti mat rifles) miniguns, vertibirds, and salvaged power armor are just stick and stones compared to some machetes and some super sledges.

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garyonez



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:02 am

i want to say the legion becuz ilike them more lol but the don not have the firepower the ncr has so i guess the ncr-----dammit
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DrunkChicken101



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:45 am

NCR because I am biased...But realistically I'd say NCR because of the resources (what little they have) The stuff that they have would be extremely helpful in a proper fight against the Legion, like others mentioned, Power Armour, Vertiberds, firearms and training.
While the Legion are very aggressive and offensive, I don't see them winning

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Overdone



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:47 am

Hmm... This is an interesting question.... I think I'm gonna have to say Mr. House.

With the Courier dead, Benny keeps the chip in the Tops. He can't go to Fortification Hill because the Legion is based there. The only reason Benny left the Tops was because the Courier spooked him. Benny's a smart guy, and would not go into to Caesar's camp willingly.

Mr. House would investigate the Courier's death. He might figure out that Khans were involved. It's hard to tell what he would do with them. He might wipe them out, or interrogate them, or just leave them be. In the case he figures out Benny was involved, he'll wait for Benny to make his move, and get the chip back. He gets his Securitrons upgraded and can hold New Vegas.

The NCR is spread thin and is slowly getting drained by the Mojave and New Vegas. The Legion waits for days for commands from Caesar. Both require expansion to survive. Every day that both factions are not making a play, they grow weary and weak. The Courier's involvement sets things in motion for things to happen. Caesar will probably die to cancer, and Lanius will probably make his move.

While that happens, Mr. House swoops into Caesar's camp and gets his army. Lanius may kick the NCR off of Hoover dam, but Mr. House would take it soon after.

There are a lot of ifs in my theory, but this entire thread is a giant if closed eyes smile

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rusty corkscrew



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:10 am

I don't get how Ceasar's legion was ever a threat in the first place. Spears vs guns? Really? Like 10% of the legion have guns, with 100% of the NCR having guns, and the NCR has more than enough ammo and troops. If they can beat the BOS, they can beat the legion.
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LanPaKing



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:20 am

From the way I see, if the story progresses on without the courier, as in you, to intervene, it'll probably be Caesar's Legion.

1st off, let's compare NCR with the Legion in terms of connections or friends. NCR pretty much don't have anyone other than themselves in the Mojave wasteland, also they seem to make more enemies than friends, like the powder gangers, BoS, Kings, Khans.......I mean, no one really likes NCR. The Legion however have connections with the Khans, Gomorrah and even inside the NCR.

Now let's talk about camps, pretty much every NCR camps across the wasteland are dying, if not, crippled while the Legion camp seem to be doing well for themselves. That means without the courier's intervention, all these NCR camps will die along with the men stationed there.

Now onto army and armory. NCR seems to be more well armed or well equipped than the Legion whenever you see one, but if during the battle of Hoover Dam, I doubt it. Let's not forget about the weapon crates found in Gomorrah, those were said to arm and army - and in this case, mostly the Legion army. Also the Khans have their own army and they are well trained and well equipped to fight in harsh conditions and situations, so in terms of firepower I would probably say that during the battle, the Legion will be on par with NCR but in terms of man power, totally outnumbered. Also, kind far fetched here, but I think those Fiends might work alongside with the Legions seeing they have a trade deal with the Khans and that the Khans will be working with the Legion and what not.........it's just a far fetched thought, but there's no saying it won't happen.

House on the other side, is too much of a bigot to make friends or even trust someone, no one likes him, not even the Tribe and Family he help created are willing to work for him. Thus even if he has the platinum chip, no one will be willing enough to bring it to the fort and upgrade that army of tin cans for him.

Benny........well, he'll just die one way or another because he is a douche and I doubt anyone would like working with a douche.
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Mattafex



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:34 am

I'm not sure what New Vegas you guys have if the Legion only carried spears and machetes, wish i had that seeing as past Novac they all carried 44s, Marksman Carbines and powerful melee weapons.

Id personally have to say if it comes down to just what we see in game, that the Legion have better odds, i mean they where able to make a entire NCR town into a ghoul infested hell hole, have a NCR spy at McCarran, be able to assassinate the NCR president and take control of another NCR town when its in earshot of a NCR base.
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AMOneEighty



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:53 am

The thing is the Legion wasn't JUST spears and whatnot, they even said they arm their men with firepower because they know just spears is suicide. Not only that, they're no stranger to espionage and whatnot, look at "I Put A Spell On You" and the President Kimball one, they infiltrate the NCR with ease. Not only that they have the whole put fear in your enemies heart thing going on since they always choose death and go out taking out as many as they could.
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lgarrott



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:26 am

NCR and proud! But seriously in the long run the NCR would win. Once Caesar dies the Legion dies with him
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AMOneEighty



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:58 am

That I agree with, but in terms of the battle for Hoover Damn the Legion will win that, will they hold it later? Maybe not with Caesar passing but still they would win the Dam without the Couriers help
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Tray



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:18 pm

Initially, the Legion would most likely take the Dam, but depending on their losses, they could be quite susceptible to a counter-attack from Mr. House, not to mention if the NCR really sent in the reinforcements if they lose the dam, albeit that could take time. It would easily hurt the NCR morale quite badly, though.

So IMO, the Legion would take the dam, but lose it due to the NCR dedicating more troops, or House working with them. How this would affect the settlements back west could be bad, but it's better than letting slaver scum get closer to all of them, I would say.

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Andrees92



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:40 pm

House would be out of the picture as far as I'm concerned, because his only choice would be that he found a courier as capable as the player to get the platinum chip and rearm his securitron Mk. 2 army. The legion would win, but, as the courier says to Lanius, maintaining the mojave would be a whole other thing, and I don't believe they'd be capable of that, specially with a leader in poor health conditions.

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Tray



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:47 pm

@Andrees92 wrote:
House would be out of the picture as far as I'm concerned, because his only choice would be that he found a courier as capable as the player to get the platinum chip and rearm his securitron Mk. 2 army. The legion would win, but, as the courier says to Lanius, maintaining the mojave would be a whole other thing, and I don't believe they'd be capable of that, specially with a leader in poor health conditions.

Yeah, it really just depends on where the chip falls to really make a difference. Whether Benny gets it, or House somehow finds a way to get it back and get it into the Fort, or Caesar gets his hands on it would honestly make the difference at the battle IMO.

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Andrees92



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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:13 pm

So, the legion will win at Hoover Dam, and in this case there's two probable scenarios:

1. Benny has the chip, eventually he gets executed, and thrown to a river, some hole in the ground, etc, in this case and provided House finds a way to stay alive and not get destroyed by the legion, he will spend years and more thousands of caps to find the chip again (if he does), and then he will be able to destroy the Legion, however, this scenario depends on the fact that the caesar doesn't get the chip, and they leave the fort as an HQ, because if they have the chip it will still be unlikely that they'll be able to get to the securitron bunker.

2. Caesar gets the chip, in this case, its nearly impossible for House to reactivate his army, then again provided he manages to stay alive.

Obviously there could be more scenarios, I'm not taking into account the presence of the NCR, and if there will be a third battle for Hoover Dam.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:10 pm

I'd love to see a real timeline for FNV, so if the Courier doesn't get involved there still is a Hover Dam battle with consequences.

By default, I think House would take the chip back from Benny, 'cause you konw : House always wins!
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