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 who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Fri 11 Aug 2017 - 22:01

I think from a defensive standpoint, the NCR wins the battle. The Legion actually has to pass through the dam and if the NCR knew they were coming, it could be barricaded. The NCR has power armor and vertibirds. The legion does not. The Boomers would also probabably find it in their best interests to assist the NCR even without the couriers help. They would be enslaved or murdered otherwise.

So you have powerarmored troops, vertibirds, and the Boomers hurling 1k pound projectiles at the legions staging area at the dam. Plus the only way to the other side would be straight across the top which is a snipers dream come true. It` no mans land for any legion personell to cross with nowhere to go but forward. NCR scouts would have plenty of time to report legion movement so I don`t beleive any suprise attack would be possible. Legion is only numbers but they don`t have the technological resoucres to win the event.
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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Fri 11 Aug 2017 - 22:09

Agreed, I find it to be highly probable that the NCR would at the very least hold onto Hoover Damn with or without the Courier. The Legion is a formidable foe indeed, but they just don't have the resources like the NCR does.

Heck as an example the artillery pieces the Legion does have don't even work and only do if the Courier feels so inclined to fix it for them, and even then they're pretty much useless without the Boomers' support.

I just can't see the Legion winning in most scenarios without third party support. Mr. House also needs the Courier to upgrade his robots for him, and of course Yes Man is pretty much in the same boat.


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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Fri 11 Aug 2017 - 22:21

Trick question, black bears aren't native to this area.

Fiends win.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Fri 11 Aug 2017 - 23:14

My bet is the Legion, without the Courier, they would have allied with the Great Khans, the NCR would have to deal with attacks from the Legion, the Powder Gangers and the Fiends while also dealing with double agents sabatoging both of them, the Legion really didn't have that much opposition or troubles that the NCR has to deal with, the NCR may have beaten the Legion once but they're constantly being weakened from the inside and out.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Fri 11 Aug 2017 - 23:51

commissar197 wrote:
My bet is the Legion, without the Courier, they would have allied with the Great Khans, the NCR would have to deal with attacks from the Legion, the Powder Gangers and the Fiends while also dealing with double agents sabatoging both of them, the Legion really didn't have that much opposition or troubles that the NCR has to deal with, the NCR may have beaten the Legion once but they're constantly being weakened from the inside and out.


Honestly, I don`t think the Khans would have been much of a problem. They were basically a burned out from the slaughter and they really don`t want anything more to do with the NCR from here on out. They just stay in their canyon and you don`t see them much. If the NCR wanted them dead they wouldn`t be there. In the event that they did side with the legion, I don`t see it making much of a difference given the tech they posess.

The powergangers numbers are so small, they couldn`t do very much damage before they were wiped out. Gotta remember their numbers reflect the population of one prison and most are dead from infighting and NCR encounters. I wouldn`t rely on them to be any formidable opposition given the small ranks they have.

The fiends have energy weapons and the most numbers out of the those 3 faction but weld the doors to their vaults shut and place turrets outside them and never worry about them again.


Hoover dam is tactical chokepoint. The legions numbers mean nothing trying to move across a 12 foot wide dam with inferior weaponry. Especially when the NCR can mine the bridge, place turrets, Snipers up top, air support, and power armor. Not even considering all the rangers out in the boonies that can be airdropped in to assist. The legion looks good on paper with sheer numbers but their stengths won`t help them in an all out assault on that position. And after what happened in Nipton because of all the whoring and sin going on there with people being burned on tires. You can bet the gangs working in NV at the casinos and hotels will reluctantly back the NCR instead of taking chances with whatever Ceaser decides to do with them.
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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Sat 12 Aug 2017 - 6:41

@Banewrath You make good points and I don't know enough about how the Legion would change their tactics in the second Battle of the Hoover Dam to speak of how they'd fight besides their Roman-esque warfare so I concede. But the I do believe it'd be a phyrric victory for the NCR if they win, they'd still have to deal with all the hostile gangs of Vegas, while being spread even more thin then before do to casualties from the Battle of the Dam, and still having to hold on to their various outposts around the Mojave, and after all that they'd still have to deal with Mr. House, he'd still control the Strip Families, and while he would probably still deal peacefully with the NCR he could still have enough power to put up a fight against the NCR if he wanted to keep the Dam and Vegas for himself and I just don't believe they'd have enough strength to conquer the city

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Mon 14 Aug 2017 - 23:40

i say legion there killing more ncr then the outer way

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 1:32

Kinda funny how one man or woman can change the future of the Mojave.
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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 2:05

I'll put my chips on Legion, even without a tech advantage.
In my opinion, they just have their nails so deep into the NCR's neck that they don't have a chance of standing even if they repulse the attack on the Hoover Dam. With Hanlon lowering Moral, Omerta's organizing a coup, the fiends gathering for an enormous assault on Mccarran, Kimball in line to be assassinated, Camp Forlorn Hope poised to fall ... It just seems like Caesar has stacked the deck entirely in his favor, while the NCR seems barely able to hold on as it is.

Hypothetically, the assault on the dam consists of a Full-scale offensive on the concourse itself lead by Lanius and an assassination team lead by Vulpes below, using the Intake valves to infiltrate the dam and sneak into Oliver's chambers. Now, considering how well defended Oliver actually is inside his bunker, this assassination would probably fail and the assassination team would resort to fighting within the dam purely for the sake of confusion. The word is sent out to Camp Mccarran that reinforcements are needed at the dam but they're currently busy trying to fight off wave after wave of drugged-up fiends, whereas Forlorn Hope is smashed by the combined efforts of Nelson, Cottonwood and legion raiding parties advancing across the river, who move onto Camp Golf shortly thereafter after sustaining heavy losses.

As for the battle top-side, Lanius and his tide of legionaries are at first halted by superior sniper-fire from the NCR Rangers stationed around the dam and are unable to proceed until they use columns of slaves as moving cover, eventually coming within reach of the NCR Barricade and overwhelming them with sheer numbers. By this time, Vulpes and his team of Fumentarii are dead and the intake valves are sealed by NCR engineers.

Assuming Bitter Springs would pose a problem, the Khans would likely be tasked with wiping them out with Legion support.

To cause further panic, NCR Opposers begin rioting in Freeside and the NCR MPs are sent to quell them, doing so successfully but also leaving the NCR embassy open to a bombing by the Omertas, the Monorail that would've provided reinforcements from Camp Mccarran having been properly sabotaged.

Now, with NCR influence weakened dramatically and what few camps remain in the mojave cut off from their power structure, the Legion squats atop the dam and holds it from counter-attacks mounted from the various Ranger Camps around the Mojave, ordered by Oliver within the bunker. Eventually, the Legion starves Oliver and his men out after a long, drawn-out stalemate and the General is forced to surrender, what remaining NCR troops being forced to flee the Mojave to regroup for a counter-attack.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 2:35

Legion probably would have won. The NCR was getting yanked all over the place and were struggling. The legion were setting up to absolutely ruin so many things for NCR and Mr.House. Benny possibly but, i see Mr.House killing him. The legion is too big and destructive to stop without the Couriers intervention.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 3:15

IIHawkerII wrote:
I'll put my chips on Legion, even without a tech advantage.
In my opinion, they just have their nails so deep into the NCR's neck that they don't have a chance of standing even if they repulse the attack on the Hoover Dam. With Hanlon lowering Moral, Omerta's organizing a coup, the fiends gathering for an enormous assault on Mccarran, Kimball in line to be assassinated, Camp Forlorn Hope poised to fall ... It just seems like Caesar has stacked the deck entirely in his favor, while the NCR seems barely able to hold on as it is.

Hypothetically, the assault on the dam consists of a Full-scale offensive on the concourse itself lead by Lanius and an assassination team lead by Vulpes below, using the Intake valves to infiltrate the dam and sneak into Oliver's chambers. Now, considering how well defended Oliver actually is inside his bunker, this assassination would probably fail and the assassination team would resort to fighting within the dam purely for the sake of confusion. The word is sent out to Camp Mccarran that reinforcements are needed at the dam but they're currently busy trying to fight off wave after wave of drugged-up fiends, whereas Forlorn Hope is smashed by the combined efforts of Nelson, Cottonwood and legion raiding parties advancing across the river, who move onto Camp Golf shortly thereafter after sustaining heavy losses.

As for the battle top-side, Lanius and his tide of legionaries are at first halted by superior sniper-fire from the NCR Rangers stationed around the dam and are unable to proceed until they use columns of slaves as moving cover, eventually coming within reach of the NCR Barricade and overwhelming them with sheer numbers. By this time, Vulpes and his team of Fumentarii are dead and the intake valves are sealed by NCR engineers.

Assuming Bitter Springs would pose a problem, the Khans would likely be tasked with wiping them out with Legion support.

To cause further panic, NCR Opposers begin rioting in Freeside and the NCR MPs are sent to quell them, doing so successfully but also leaving the NCR embassy open to a bombing by the Omertas, the Monorail that would've provided reinforcements from Camp Mccarran having been properly sabotaged.

Now, with NCR influence weakened dramatically and what few camps remain in the mojave cut off from their power structure, the Legion squats atop the dam and holds it from counter-attacks mounted from the various Ranger Camps around the Mojave, ordered by Oliver within the bunker. Eventually, the Legion starves Oliver and his men out after a long, drawn-out stalemate and the General is forced to surrender, what remaining NCR troops being forced to flee the Mojave to regroup for a counter-attack.


While you pose an interesting scenario. I`m not sure anyone in NV who is not already in the legion would side with them knowing thier poitical veiws on all the actions they are already doing an everyday basis. Besides, the legion could never pull off a sneak attack. Scouts would be able to report movements at least a day in advance for the the NCR to prepare for any incoming strikes. You are also forgetting about a very important factor, the Boomers. There is no way they would join with the legion and would aid the NCR just because they know where they already stand with them. They may be inbreds with cannons but I`m sure they are smart to be able to keep the NCR at a distance for as long as they have. They know the legion would try and assimilate them or murder them. They like the freedom they have too much.

The dam itself is impenetrable if the NCR has time to barricade and enforce the entry points. Even with all the connon fodder the legion has, they still have to be standing out taking fire while trying to break the barricades.
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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 7:51

@Banewrath Well the Great Khans were willing to side with the Legion just for sake of revenge, and many people mention that Legion territory is alot safer then NCR territory and I'm sure some factions would want to get on the good side of slavers then the bad side
Also the Boomers wouldn't side with either faction, they'd have to make it across their artillery fields alive and convince them first, they'd likely fire on NCR and Legion forces, they treat all outsiders the same. Not all Legionnaires are just melee fighters, there's plenty that use guns and explosives that can harass the defenders while the melee fighters dash towards them.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 8:19

commissar197 wrote:
@Banewrath Well the Great Khans were willing to side with the Legion just for sake of revenge, and many people mention that Legion territory is alot safer then NCR territory and I'm sure some factions would want to get on the good side of slavers then the bad side
Also the Boomers wouldn't side with either faction, they'd have to make it across their artillery fields alive and convince them first, they'd likely fire on NCR and Legion forces, they treat all outsiders the same. Not all Legionnaires are just melee fighters, there's plenty that use guns and explosives that can harass the defenders while the melee fighters dash towards them.

Some good points you have. I don`t think the Khans would side with them even for revenge. You saw how papa khan threw out the emissary when he discovered they were going to be enslaved. They wished to remain neutral after they heard they wouldn`t be favored by ceasar. And who just joins a side without knowing what their plans are and what they are about. I just don`t think the Khans views on life would fit in well with what the legion would expect of them. They are like the freebirds of NV, I can hear them playin Skynrd.

I do think the boomers would side with the NCR just because their stockpile of munitions wouldn`t last forever and they know it. Better for them to assist and stay in the same position then do nothing and defend against a legion attack. The Boomers know the NCR is trying to help NV be a better place even though they don`t agree with how they do it. So they remain in solitude on their base. It would be in their best interests to side with NCR because chances are the NCR would share resources and make good on being helped. Especially with that kind of firepower they have. The legion just assimilates and murders whoever don`t concede. The Boomers would be fools to trust any agreement the legion would offer and I think they are smart enough to realize that. The NCR could have air dropped rangers on their base at anytime and overwhelmed what little remained of the boomers. They never did though. Those howitzers aren`t going to be able to track and hit flying targets. The NCR just left them alone and I think the Boomers are intelligent enough to recognize that.

The only faction I don`t think would willingly side with either is the BOS. Even if it meant their survival. The just give zero fucks about everything that isn`t immediate to them. Everyone else in NV has a reason to back the NCR because the stakes are that high.

Gotta remember too. The legion aren`t saviors, they are conquers and plunderers. They aren`t going to NV to save everyone and make life better for the people in NV. They want to destroy everyone and steal all the resources to fund the next campaign as they sweep across the United States. Of course they will recruit what few survivors remain after the battles but they are selling themselves into servitude doing so. the ones who refuse are put to death. Remember the lottery?

This is of course all theory. Who knows what would really happen. I think the people of NV would pull together to fight off a larger threat then the way the NCR runs things. Maybe not though. Who knows.
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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 8:40

@Banewrath You put up good arguements, the Great Khans may or may not have allied with the Legion but they did not know the Legion was going to enslave them until the Courier told them, but there's no courier here, the Great Khans may not have been as violent as the Legion but they were still surely mad and wanting revenge for the Bitter Springs Massacre.
The NCR didn't have much of an airforce, the only one air vehicle they had in the Mojave if I'm remembering right was the Bear Force One for President Kimball, plus the Boomers still had enough rockets to make any faction think twice about trying to get in their territory from air or land. And again the Boomers are completely cut off from the Mojave, they do not trust ANYONE who is not a Boomer, the Legion also could have tried attacking them but they didn't, the Boomers are heavily armed and not very willing to negotiate with anybody, I mean for pete's sake the only way you gain their trust is by surfacing an ancient bomber plane from a mirelurk infested lake for them.
I agree completely about the BOS.
We all know the truth about the Legion, they're scummy slavers, however, they do have great spies and diplomats and can convince factions like the Great Khans, Fiends and traders that go through their territory they aren't in danger of being enslaved, only their enemies and anyone carrying things like drugs around are in danger.
I believe that the people are too divided and have too much of their own problems to deal with to focus on banding together against the Legion, such as the Powder Gangers harassing Primm and Goodsprings, the Fiends basically surrounding and attacking farmers and traders around Vegas, the Kings nearly splitting in half, many NCR outposts and at least one squad going without help and training that the Courier would have helped with but, they're not there in this scenario.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 9:23

commissar197 wrote:
@Banewrath You put up good arguements, the Great Khans may or may not have allied with the Legion but they did not know the Legion was going to enslave them until the Courier told them, but there's no courier here, the Great Khans may not have been as violent as the Legion but they were still surely mad and wanting revenge for the Bitter Springs Massacre.
The NCR didn't have much of an airforce, the only one air vehicle they had in the Mojave if I'm remembering right was the Bear Force One for President Kimball, plus the Boomers still had enough rockets to make any faction think twice about trying to get in their territory from air or land. And again the Boomers are completely cut off from the Mojave, they do not trust ANYONE who is not a Boomer, the Legion also could have tried attacking them but they didn't, the Boomers are heavily armed and not very willing to negotiate with anybody, I mean for pete's sake the only way you gain their trust is by surfacing an ancient bomber plane from a mirelurk infested lake for them.
I agree completely about the BOS.
We all know the truth about the Legion, they're scummy slavers, however, they do have great spies and diplomats and can convince factions like the Great Khans, Fiends and traders that go through their territory they aren't in danger of being enslaved, only their enemies and anyone carrying things like drugs around are in danger.
I believe that the people are too divided and have too much of their own problems to deal with to focus on banding together against the Legion, such as the Powder Gangers harassing Primm and Goodsprings, the Fiends basically surrounding and attacking farmers and traders around Vegas, the Kings nearly splitting in half, many NCR outposts and at least one squad going without help and training that the Courier would have helped with but, they're not there in this scenario.

You put up some good ideas as well. I do think the Boomers though would side with the NCR. Like you said they are cut off from the rest of the Mohave and sooner or later their stocks will run low. They cannot reproduce artillery ammunition. Better to make friends with the NCR then take your chances with the Legion. If a massive force was coming my way and I knew their intent was to destroy and plunder, I would side with my surrounding neighbors to fight them off, even if our relationship would return to how it was before the invasion. At least that is my way of thinking.

The fiends would probably join like you said but they would but any leftover from the battle would be executed because the Legion don`t tolerate drug use and they are all burnouts in the fiends. They could be controlled if the NCR advanced on their vaults and sealed them shut though. Who knows though.

I don`t know if the powdergangers would join because remember you had the chance to save them after Nipton? Those gangers would go back to the prison and report what the legion is about. Or maybe another powderganger may have seen the others taken away. They would likely hold up in the prison until things blew over and then the legion would wipe them out. Not too many gangers left.

Now the Kings! They worship Elvis so they would help the NCR. The King is a good man and looks out for the people and he`s also a pretty smart guy being able to run freeside and keep confrontation with the NCR to a minimum. I`d wager he would assist the NCR. The King likes his power he has and if the legion took over he would be a slave. They wouldn`t make him an officer when they already look down on everyone.

The way I see it in the end is with NCR, people have the choice to keep things the way they are. That way may not be the happiest or optimal way to exist but I think they would prefer it to stay that way. At least they know where they stand at the present moment. If the legion rolls in and takes over, it`s anyones guess who gets to stay alive. especially when Caesar is so hardcore about cleansing everything he deems inappropriate. Some gangs and factions might think they would be welcomed with open arms into the legion but without being 100% certain, I think it would be too much of a gamble.

I `m enjoying our discussion. You put up some strong points I hadn`t considered.
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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 9:41

I can protest that the Legion win. Because if Caesar dies, they will try take Dam as tribute. But they will fail, like i said before. Caesar's power built on enslaving, evilness and rudeness, he is like totalitaric power (like Hitler and Stalin).
Like i said before NCR will outnumber Legion folks and try to hold Dam as long before Legion will retreat.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 11:26

I honestly can't believe for a second that the Legion would win. Sure the evidence points to it, but, they're...machete-wielding football-pad wearing totalitarian maniacs. How can a force as powerful as the NCR, who beat even the BoS by outnumbering them, one of the strongest forces in Fallout, get trumped by the Legion, especially with them owning so much land in the Mojave? I personally think Obsidian just tried making the Legion out to be some much more powerful than they actually probably are, to add a sense of urgency to the storyline. Maybe they thought of not falling into the trap Fallout 3 and 4 fell into where the player feels more need to explore than to actually complete the story, but I digress.

That being said, I don't think the NCR have a good reputation among the other factions and the Great Khans seem to already favor the Legion with Karl so maybe the Khans would fall for the Legion's lies? Not only that, but as others have alluded to they are the hip outsiders so they would probably stay with the Legion just to spite the NCR. If this does happen of course, the Khans would be wiped out pretty easily in the aftermath.

The BoS survive by 2287 according to Proctor Quinlan's terminal, so House and Legion ending is noncanon. So what we can see is that the BoS either stay underground and slowly reintegrate into Maxson's Eastern Chapter, or they side with NCR and do the same after Hoover Dam, and of course, if the terminal in Proctor Quinlan's office on the Prydwen is taking the Courier's actions into account, possibly without the Courier, the BoS would be wiped out entirely by the Legion. The likelihood is that they would side with the NCR because they would realize how the Legion could quite easily wipe them all out, and let's face it, the BoS and NCR forming an alliance after a history of warfare would make for a good story, something more optimistic than them being brutally slaughtered and killed by a tyrannical megalomaniac, and many of the Fallout games are somewhat optimistic of the future rather than pessimistic and negative about it. I can't see them writing a BoS loss at the hands of the Legion. They do have a prior knowledge of the above ground because of the scouts they send out, I find it hard to believe the scouts would have no knowledge of the Legion at all, especially when their camps are fairly common in the Mojave. So I'm going to say the BoS allies with the NCR, further evidencing an NCR victory.

Even with a Legion victory I find it ironic how the BoS and NCR's arrogance is eventually what leads to their downfall, and as a result, the Mojave's downfall. If the NCR didn't weaken the BoS in the first place, the Legion wouldn't have a chance in hell, seeing as the Legion's strength is in numbers, and pretty much nothing else. Their weapons are weak, they lack strong armor and they have pretty much everybody in the Mojave out against them if they don't play their cards right. Caesar's charisma and intelligence is the only reason the Legion is such a powerful force. With a belligerent leader like Lanius who cares more about the Legion's pride and honor than their numbers, the NCR would wipe the floor with them, so if Caesar dies of his tumor before the Battle Of Hoover Dam, it's going to be the comeback that the NCR needs. Lanius is not well trusted by Vulpes or Caesar so this may lead to a rebellion or lack of morale in the Legion, which under Caesar, was another reason the Legion was such a prevalent force.

It's going to be a close victory for the NCR imho. The NCR doesn't rely on one leader to get things done, while the Legion does. Caesar dying of the tumor would open a window for the NCR to strike back, and with the BoS support, possibly outright destroy the Legion. Even with a Legion ending as such, the NCR is never truly defeated, and with the Legion being left Caesar-less, give the NCR another window to destroy the Legion. In other words, the Legion cannot defeat the NCR forever, and possibly can't even at Hoover Dam.

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Tue 15 Aug 2017 - 12:00

Remember guys, the question isn't who wins the Mojave, it's who wins the second battle for the dam. =P

That being said, y'all make great points! Honestly, though I do see the Legion taking the dam back in the battle due to their extremely thorough planning and overwhelming number, I'd say when a counter-attack was eventually mounted by the NCR and Caesar's dead of his brain tumor, they don't have a chance of putting up a successful defense.

As for the Khans, Boomers and Powder-gangers... (They're all pretty minor players in this.)

We already know the Khans are willing to side with the Legion on the get go in retaliation for the Bitter Springs Massacre, and while they pose a small threat military wise, they do supply most of the Mojave with freshly brewed chems, which goes far with groups like the fiends who can't make their own as efficiently as Papa Khan's people.

The Boomers are the Boomers, eventually, they very well may decide to ally themselves with the NCR, but I don't see them making up their minds in time for the second battle of the Hoover dam without the intervention of the Courier. More than likely they'd blow up anyone that came too close until they ran short of ammunition, which would be a long time from the second battle.

The Powder-gangers, personally, I'd put them down as a neutral faction. But if I had to decide, they'd most likely go with the Legion either out of fear of the massacre at Nipton or out of sheer hate for the NCR. But again, they're very small and may not pose much of threat beyond hassling / over-running towns like Goodsprings for the sake of Chaos.

As for the Legion Surprise attack on Oliver's quarters, you can actually see evidence of this working as there's a pile of dead legionaries at the foot of Oliver's door showing they successfully got that far at least. Part of 'Eureka!' is actually reversing the flow of the Intake valves for an NCR engineer to stop legion troops from entering that way. And remember, this infiltration happens along-side the attack above, providing quite the distraction for NCR spotters to deal with.


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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed 16 Aug 2017 - 17:34

I feel like there's not enough faith in how far having superior numbers goes in a war. Sure the Fiends and Powder Gangers aren't soldiers and most of em are strung out lowlifes, but they all hate the NCR with strong passion, they are all willing to fight dirty and I bet most of them would rather die fighting then be returned or placed in NCR prison camps again. The same goes for the Khans.

The NCR does have some better training then most factions and they even managed to beat the Brotherhood of Steel with some better tactics and superior numbers. However, most of them aren't much better then the next Wasteland farmer with a gun, the Legion train non-stop and keep their most experienced behind the less experienced meatshield recruits, which was a tactic that helped them conquer dozens and dozens of tribes.

The NCR could annihilate the Fiends, Great Khans, and Powder Gangers easily in open combat, but that won't and doesn't happen. These groups fight in hit and run tactics that wear down the NCR, it of course doesn't stop them completely though.

The NCR is spread thin and if they focus enough firepower to wipe out each group at a time they leave their other outposts exposed to either their other enemies or the Legion themselves, that's not even counting how many casualties the NCR might face attacking the gangs in their home territory.

The NCR faces large amounts of enemies on all fronts, from the Fiends, Great Khans, Powder Gangers and other minor gangs while being weakened from within by the Legion's spies, one of which even could have assassinated President Kimball without the Courier's intervention. If they do win the Battle it could be the start of the fall of the NCR.

Also, again, the Boomers are completely cut off from the Mojave. They bomb any and ALL that they see try to enter their territory, they're practically a family cult and just want to be left alone so they can fly away in their bomber or whatever they planned, and they already aren't on friendly terms with the NCR, from the FO wiki, "Once, the NCR attempted to shut off the Boomers’ water supply. The Boomers’ response was to shell sections of the NCR’s water pipeline in eastern New Vegas.The NCR promptly restored the flow."

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PostSubject: Re: who'd win the battle of Hoover Dam without the couriers intervention?   Wed 16 Aug 2017 - 21:59

commissar197 wrote:

The NCR does have some better training then most factions and they even managed to beat the Brotherhood of Steel with some better tactics and superior numbers. However, most of them aren't much better then the next Wasteland farmer with a gun, the Legion train non-stop and keep their most experienced behind the less experienced meatshield recruits, which was a tactic that helped them conquer dozens and dozens of tribes. ."

That is exactly the point though. The legion is accustomed to zerging tribes that aren`t trained soldiers. So sheer numbers on untrained civilians is easy. Trained soldiers with coordination and training will pick numbers away quickly.



commissar197 wrote:

Also, again, the Boomers are completely cut off from the Mojave. They bomb any and ALL that they see try to enter their territory, they're practically a family cult and just want to be left alone so they can fly away in their bomber or whatever they planned, and they already aren't on friendly terms with the NCR, from the FO wiki, "Once, the NCR attempted to shut off the Boomers’ water supply. The Boomers’ response was to shell sections of the NCR’s water pipeline in eastern New Vegas.The NCR promptly restored the flow."

I understand your thinking on the Boomers. I cannot see their supplies lasting for too much longer though. How much food and ammunition can a 200 year old militarty base have? You never see any supply runners for them in the wasteland. The one guy spoke about making robots to scavenge but you never see any of those either.

If I were the NCR and wanted to take that base from the Boomers. I would capture powdergangers and fiends and make them run the guantlet so the boomers would exaust their ammo stores. Then sweep in and take over the base. They have literally no way to replenish their stocks. Siding with the NCR is a safer bet. Doing nothing at the battle just leaves them guessing what the legion has in store for them. At least with the NCR they know where they stand and have a don`t mess me understanding.
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