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 Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think

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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyTue Feb 16, 2021 9:06 pm

So, I've been wanting to post about this topic for awhile but it always ended up being far too long. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that someone else had already made a video about it, and even more about the fact that he lays out the case perfectly (considering the kind of absolute, total morons that usually make Fallout content - Oxhorn the worst of them - I wasn't expecting to find such a good video). I know it's rather long but it's worth it.





Topics

- The problems with pleasing the fanbase
- The genius of the junk economy
- Why FO4 is not only an RPG but an excellent one
- Why the game did the S.P.E.C.I.A.L system better than ever before
- Why skill points are NOT a good way to represent character growth
- What makes The Commonwealth such an excellently designed setting
- Proper enemy variety
- Why the factions are excellently designed.

And more...


Last edited by gavin gold on Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Heisenberg

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyWed Feb 17, 2021 2:07 am

For the longest time, hbomberguy's Fallout 3 hitpiece plagued the recommended of many a Fallout fan's recommended. Then along came "Fallout 3 is better than you think" by MATN, which completely dismantled and destroyed the arguments of the former, while bringing up integral points to the overall game design, rather than minor nitpicks like the former. This video in the OP is just another example of this.

Now I completely understand that Fallout 3 and 4 aren't perfect games, but neither is New Vegas and it should be acknowledged as such. When hbomberguy kept bringing up New Vegas to insult 3 and 4, he failed to mention the differences in philosophy of game design and the differences between 3/4 and New Vegas from a purely technical standpoint. He also conveniently decided to not mention arguments that would trip up his own.

For the first half hour, hbomberguy only ever talks about how overblown the reviews are for Fallout 3. He fails to mention that Fallout 3 was received so well as a result of Bethesda taking a dead franchise and bringing it back from the dead. When you put the overwhelmingly positive reviews in context (and also bear in mind the overall quality of the game), it all starts to make sense why Fallout 3 is the best reviewed Fallout game of all time.

One of the first points hbomberguy made which made me click off the video and come back to it to form my opinion on it in small, digestible chunks was the sheer ignorance of his point that Fallout 3 forces the player to kill NPCs in the tutorial section. He fails to note that you can go through the entire Vault sequence not even harming a radroach (outside of the one when you get the BB gun as a kid). You can run past the Vault security, and there's even occurrences which allow you to do so. The radroaches attack and distract the Vault security long enough for the player to make a dash for the nearest corridor. They are literally scripted to do so.

So when MATN makes a video like this and "Fallout 3 is better than you think", even if it doesn't really matter to me since I will make my own opinion on the games anyway, it brings a smile to my face.

Thuggysmurf made a good point in one of his articles on the Nexus. While I don't use his mods, he essentially made the point that more people play Fallout 4 than New Vegas. New Vegas is cheaper and more accessible to weaker hardware, so why do more people still play Fallout 4? While Fallout 4 is weaker from many elements of it's design in comparison to New Vegas, people still play Fallout 4, meaning to them, Fallout 4 is an overall better video game more worthy of their time. While it doesn't necessarily matter to the average individual what the majority thinks, it's proof that the hate for Fallout 3 and 4 derive from a very vocal minority, likely from NMA or the RPGcodex.

While I don't disagree with this point, I have my own views on Fallout 4. I have dumped around 1500 hours into Fallout 4 on Steam and Xbox One. I have dumped around 2000 hours into 3 and New Vegas each if you total my hours on Steam and 360. The last time I actually even fully played 4 was maybe a year ago. Every time I have tried to get back into it, I just couldn't. The linearity of it's design repelled me. New Vegas has similar problems, yet I have no problem getting back into that game. With Fallout 3 I don't have this problem either. While Fallout 3 determines my backstory for me, I'm free to explore once I exit the Vault and go anywhere I please. New Vegas's map design can be very linear at times. For instance, you have to go down the route through Primm/Nipton/Boulder City if you want to see all the quest stages and not miss out on 45% of the experience. In Fallout 3, the world is accessible from the very start bar high level areas like Old Olney, and that's how it should be in my mind. Fallout 4 is similar, but instead of starting you out slap bang in the middle, it places you very close to an invisible wall on the North of the map, and this falls into the same problem New Vegas had where it places you in between a Deathclaw sanctuary and the edges of the map, meaning you once again have to go through the preset route.

I can't believe that I'm actually agreeing with professional critics, but Fallout 3 deserved it's must-have status and it's critical acclaim. I know this isn't the point of the thread and video, but I would just like to give appreciation for MATN's "Fallout 3 is better than you think" video. In 2021, it's easy to shit on a game that was released 13 years ago that many young players haven't played. What people fail to realize however, is that Fallout 3 is actually the best Fallout game in many ways, and I consider New Vegas my favorite. But 3 does so much more that it doesn't deserve the hatred it gets from the band of bandwagoning morons over on NMA.

Fallout 4 is similar in this regard. While I don't necessarily think it did things much better than 3/NV, I do think that it was a worthy successor. It tried to innovate in many aspects and brought many fun elements to the series that were overlooked and hated because they took center stage. Settlement building for one. While people shit on it, it was a brilliant idea that was just executed wrong.

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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyWed Feb 17, 2021 2:42 am

@Heisenberg Hbomberguy is an idiot. And has one of the most annoying voices I've ever heard. I have no idea how the guy even has any subscribers, let alone 750,000. So you get no argument there.

But stepping away from that, did you actually watch the video? Because even me, I already loved the game before and it still managed to make me appreciate it even more.

I was one of the people that thought "FO4 is not quite as good as an RPG, but I'm fine with that because it's still better as a whole". He actually makes the point that FO4 is excellent as an RPG. And once you listen to it, he's absolutely right. That's why I gave up on writing this stuff myself, he already made the case perfectly.
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Heisenberg

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyWed Feb 17, 2021 3:35 am

@gavin gold I watched the full video when it first released. Video essays are long so I might have forgotten some of the points he made but I doubt it will change any of my opinions on the fact. From what I remember, I agreed with many of the points he made.

I just watched some of parts of it now and while I agree with him in how FO3/FNV SPECIAL is flawed, I don't think FO4's SPECIAL is a vast improvement. And I liked FO4's SPECIAL.

Many of my character builds in FO4 were just difficult to make. If I wanted to be a soldier I would have to drop my intelligence down to a measly 1 or 2 stat due to the lack of points, because in that build INT was practically useless from a technical standpoint. But that didn't feel right to me. Why is my character stat-wise a retard, but never acknowledged as such and is only a retard because they are competent with guns? FO3/FNV attributes are not perfect either in this regard. He is right that they are too generous with the points given.

For reference, watch some FudgeMuppet build guides. I used to follow their guides when I played the game a lot. There's many builds that just make no sense stat-wise but in gameplay it's the only true way to play the build. Take their STALKER build for instance. If you want to be a competent stealthy ninja, you also have to be a complete dumbass. It makes no sense. Yeah, this makes every stat point vital, but honestly? I would much prefer having the FO3 SPECIAL points.

Attributes are dumb in New Vegas, and part of the reason I think FO3 did it much better. Speech should only be a prerequisite for lines which bring rationality or debate into the conversation. Charisma should ALWAYS be a prerequisite for lines where the NPC is merely charmed by the character's demeanor. New Vegas puts a spotlight on Speech while ignoring Charisma and like he said, this results in builds where CHR 1 and Speech 100 is viable, which also makes no sense.

So in short, both of these systems are flawed. Personally I prefer the FO3 one, but each to their own.

Essentially the point I was trying to make last post was that I liked his Fallout 3 video and I was trying to make the larger point that his presence within the sphere is much appreciated by myself because by him making these videos, it shuts down the negative press. His Fallout 3 has more views already than hbomberguy's shitpiece.

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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyWed Feb 17, 2021 6:03 am

@Heisenberg Fair enough, I know it's not like it will radically change anyone's mind (nor it should, because people should learn to think for themselves) but he does make a lot of good points and I'm hoping it encourages people to at least consider a different point of view.

One of the things that virtually everyone agrees, even the most ardent NV fans - and trust me, I love NV-  is that the gunplay is a lot better in FO4. People mod NV to its very limit in order to have decent FPS mechanics. And yet, they never stop to consider why the combat is so bad.  

Recently I had another attempt at FO2 and I was surprised how meaningful skills were. Skills are a proper representation of your character. You need them because, in an isometric RPG, you and your character are completely separated. You are not the one picking up the gun, aiming, shooting or reloading, your character is.

I say I was surprised because in NV, skills (outside of dialogue that is) are just gamey mechanics that get in my way. I'm a good shot, I know how to play the game, and yet if my character has low skill, bullets will artificially curve, making me miss. Alternatively, if I invest heavily in guns, bullets will curve the other way, going into the target even if I can't aim to save my life.

You can't have proper FPS mechanics, the kind of smooth gameplay that people want and expect, while at the same time relying so heavily on character skill. The two of them don't work well together. So when I saw that FO4 completely got rid of that system, I thought that was great. I really don't understand why people complain about it so much, as if scrapping an archaic mechanic somehow means you can't roleplay anymore.

It's not just in terms of combat btw. The hacking minigame, for instance, is another example of player skill vs character skill. Your character may have a very decent science skill of 60 but if you are bad at the minigame, you will be struggling with anything but the most basic terminals. Meanwhile, at 100 science, you will never fail a hacking attempt, even if you have no idea what you're doing, because increasing you skill reduces the amount of duds, and at that point, you will be getting just 5 possible options, and 4 attempts to find the right one. In reality, this means very hard terminals are the exact same as very easy ones. It's just not a good system.

Now, putting that aside, I saw his FO3 video as well, in fact that's how I found the channel. And even though most of what he produces is not really my thing, I'm also glad he's there, because I had pretty much given up on watching any fallout content. I don't know what it is but you so rarely find someone that makes any kind of fallout related videos that isn't a complete mouth-breather.
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyWed Feb 17, 2021 7:34 am

I've been wanting to do a video in defense of Fallout 4 for a while now but I'm just not the video makin' sort. There's so much in that game that's either misunderstood or a victim of misinformation. I believe MATN makes a point in the video of how most people don't realize that you can murk basically every faction leader in the game right when you first meet them -

Heck, I have discussions on more or less a weekly basis explaining how most 'lore breaks' people level at fallout 4 either started way earlier in the series or are completely misrepresented.

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Seifer

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyFri Feb 19, 2021 4:11 pm

I played once, feel a huge jump from new vegas, but for some reason always return to play new vegas, maybe the mod community support, the plot, dont know exactly, but also agree F4 its a great sucesor
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tm812

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyTue Feb 23, 2021 3:26 am

Fallout 4's world will never not be a disjointed mess of theme park ride dungeons. I doubt the videos address the problems I have with the game. Guess I'll find out once I find the time to watch them.

Edit: 20 minutes into the first video and this guy is more or less just a long winded, buzzword dispensing Bethesda fanboy. From the looks of the timestamps I was right. He isn't going to talk about the shit I don't like in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think   Fallout 4 Is (A LOT) Better Than You Think EmptyTue Feb 23, 2021 5:01 am

I myself have been giving some thought into playing Fallout 4 again might port a lot from 76 BUT honestly that's all it needs in my view sure the story was lack luster but there are ways around it now am i saying FNV isnt better no it's S tier in my book but Fallout 4 is alright.

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