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 Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game

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Heisenberg

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PostSubject: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyFri Aug 07, 2020 9:18 pm

I became interested in the mod community just over a decade ago. I got into it for a few reasons. Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and on a lesser note, GTA IV and The Sims 3.

When I started installing mods, I installed everything that appealed to me. HUD changes, new animations, new weapons, you name it. I was intent on turning Fallout 3, New Vegas and Oblivion into completely different games. When I played Skyrim, I did it to that game too. It was awesome, but after a while, it felt gimmicky and unnatural. I bought Fallout 3 because I liked Fallout 3, not a twisted, bizarro version of it.

You see, I once longed for animation packs that turned 3/NV's awful gunplay into gun porn. I installed all manner of HD textures, ENBs, etc. I would base my load order around drastically altering the game. It was no longer Fallout 3 or New Vegas, but Fallout 3.5 Ultra. It didn't feel like a real game that would have made it through production. It was a jumbled mess.

Then it hit me, quite recently too just over two years ago. What I really enjoyed about 3, New Vegas and Oblivion was it's vanilla game. That by adding new content like animation packs, some graphics mods, etc, it made the game feel worse in some aspects. It felt inauthentic, out of place and unnatural. This doesn't mean removing all my mods or playing vanilla, just carefully curating my mod list to see how well it fits.

There is a quote from the author of Fellout that argues that a mod is only successful if it achieves it's purpose of integrating into the game seamlessly. If you can identify it as a mod, it has failed it's purpose. It stuck with me ever since I read that mod description so many years ago. I agree with him wholeheartedly. If I'm playing a game and can identify even a texture that feels out of place, that can't integrate itself within the greater bulk of content, it takes me straight out of the experience. It's far from immersive and can delegitimise the experience.

I'm not talking about NMCs texture packs or anything else. From what I've seen of them, they fit quite well into the base game. I'm talking about certain mods like some ENB presets, gunplay mods, Power Armor mods (especially in the case of 3/NV). The power armor models in 3/NV are dated, don't get me wrong. But so are the player models, the textures, the animations, the engine and just about everything else. And I know that you can technically 'update' these outdated elements through mods, but even if you polish an old car, it doesn't make it new.

You see, for a game to be immersive, it must also be consistent. Nothing takes you out of the experience more than seeing your character has a different art style and texture style than the area you are playing in. This might seem nitpicky, but it must be a well-rounded experience. This an issue I have with some mods. Some mods feel like mods, which can be a major issue when trying to immerse yourself into the world.

Now don't mistake me. I can appreciate many modders for the effort that they put into their mods. A lot of them are genuinely amazing and deserve respect. What I'm merely saying is that for me and probably a few others, some mods just don't do it for us. Load orders centered around drastically altering the game are fine for some, a little bit too gimmicky for others.

Unlike many other mod purists as some like to call us, I'm not even too strict on my idea of lore friendly. I don't get immediately taken out of the experience if I see a M4 Carbine or another modern firearm, because Fallout isn't entirely based around the 50s, it's only inspired by that time period. The Desert Eagle 44. was only included because Chris Taylor, an original dev on Fallout 1 and 2 wanted it to be since it was his favorite gun. Any gun can be lore friendly really, as long as it isn't stupidly futuristic like a Halo rifle or something out of Destiny.

Now, I know what you're thinking. "You're a bit of a hypocrite, aren't you? You use mods!"

You're right, but I carefully curate my mod list to make it feel as authentic as possible. I only pick lore friendly versions of mods, I only pick vanilla style elements of mods and I generally try to enhance the game, while not altering it entirely until it is unrecognisable from it's base product.

If you search 'Fallout New Vegas Remaster' into YouTube, you will see all manner of videos telling you how to modernise the game. What it fails to tell you is that it doesn't 'modernise' the game, it gives it a new paint job and some new ham-fisted modern elements, then claims it's as close to a "remaster" as possible. I think most people will agree that a remaster would surpass just graphical and audio elements, right? Even Skyrim: Special Edition updated the engine to 64bit, even if it didn't do much else.

With that being said, I don't care what others do with their load order. Let it rain puppies, unicorns and kittens for all I care. I'm merely making this post to project and start a discussion about how many mods are enough. This community is so great because each person has their own philosophy on modding. Some mod it til it crashes as the popular phrase goes, some mod it to enhance it and some mod it to make it a completely fresh and new game. I can understand all philosophies, but this is purely my opinion.

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CommunistDragon

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyFri Aug 07, 2020 11:05 pm

But if you get mods that support the vision of the game. Does that ruin it? For instance Jsawyer mod and that enhance the shooting mechanics closer to modern standards. Shooting was obviously apart of the game and I bet that Obsidian did their best to improve the shooting mechanics compared to fallout 3. Then also what about Weapon Mods Expanded? This was a new mechanic implemented by obsidian to enhance diversity of weapons. A mod that enhances diversity even more aligns perfectly with obsidian's goals. I could list more but the main gist is that just because Obsidian didn't do it doesn't mean that it ruins the game. Perhaps they bring it closer to the original goal. Not to mention how they had only a year to develop the entire game. They couldn't do it all, they had to cut numerous events and scenarios.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyFri Aug 07, 2020 11:51 pm

I tend to agree to a certain extent. A good mod is one that blends properly in the game. Although I will download many, I like each one of them to be faithful to the vanilla experience. There's an important difference between replacing a stop sign with an HD version, and turning Goodsprings into Tatooine. I honestly cringe when I see StarWars, DOOM or Wolfenstein stuff in Fallout. Not that those are bad by themselves. But if I want to play CoD, I play CoD, not turn Fallout into CoD. I think it's important to appreciate the franchise.

One case where this rings specially true for me is Power Armor. I use Drag's Overhaul, I like it a lot, but it's easy to tell it isn't part of the game but something you added: There's no PA HUD. The way the character stands and moves shouldn't be possible in an exoskeleton, it clips with just about every weapon since they weren't designed to be used with that bulky body, etc.

I keep the mod because it's the best alternative. Titans of the West has its issues, and I'm particularly bothered by the fact that there's seemingly no way for armor to make your character bigger. And Vanilla armor just looks so goofy. But it does bother me.

Of course, there are mods that enhance the vanilla experience, or that arguably should be part of the game in the first place. I think Weapon Mods or Ironsights was something good to come out of the FO3 modding community, and it inspired new features in FNV and FO4. So, I think it can be subjective what mods enhance the game and what mods just turn it into a different thing. But I think it's important to appreciate the game for what it is, not turn it into something else.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptySat Aug 08, 2020 12:33 am

@CommunistDragon Jsawyer mod was made by Josh Sawyer, lead designer of New Vegas himself. I believe it to be the purest of mods being from the lead designer himself. And I don't think Jsawyer mod technically changes anything drastic about gunplay, just the weapon damages and such. If you were to argue that is too drastic a change, you'd have to argue the entire difficulty slider is too drastic a change, which is not my intention.

For Weapon Mods Expanded, I don't believe that to be too bad either. Like you said it fits in with Obsidian's vision of the game.

Cut content mods are also great because they fit in with the original vision. The only time cut content mods start to be problematic is when they restore things that were cut for obvious reasons (like the Become Elder quest for FO4 for example). That would clearly break the game and make no sense within established lore. No way would the BoS recruit Johnny Rando as their next Elder, especially over Maxson himself.

But as I said previously, none of these mods ruin what New Vegas is or was. I'm merely talking from a visual level. I like ENBs, but some completely change the tone of the game which I don't like. I like weapon mods, but some rip weapons straight out of other franchises which ruins the experience for me.

I don't want to offend any mod authors who might be reading this, so I won't name anyone. There are animation packs out there that look amazing, but almost too amazing for New Vegas. They clearly just don't fit in the game as well as the clunky, janky ones do. Maybe it's just me having played the game for a decade, but as soon I see new animations in New Vegas, I think "mod", which as previous stated, is problematic.

The F4NV team are doing brilliant work, but their work is cohesive and consistent. They are remaking every texture and every area in the game. Their texture designers and level designers work closely to provide a consistent and well packaged experience that feels like it was made by one team with close communications. There is a consistent ethic behind everything they do, much like other mod teams, like F4CW or Skyblivion, or even the employees working for Bethesda themselves.

Due to the nature of the modding community, consistency can be a problem. Different people with different visions on the game. Some of these mods can feel out of place within a game so old as New Vegas is, like the Quick Loot feature or Diagonal movement. It feels odd in-game.

@gavin gold wrote:
One case where this rings specially true for me is Power Armor. I use Drag's Overhaul, I like it a lot, but it's easy to tell it isn't part of the game but something you added: There's no PA HUD. The way the character stands and moves shouldn't be possible in an exoskeleton, it clips with just about every weapon since they weren't designed to be used with that bulky body, etc.

I keep the mod because it's the best alternative. Titans of the West has its issues, and I'm particularly bothered by the fact that there's seemingly no way for armor to make your character bigger. And Vanilla armor just looks so goofy. But it does bother me.

This is exactly what I was trying to hint at. While Drag's PA Overhaul is very impressive, it's clear that New Vegas was never intended for it. It's not Drag's fault, just the fact that New Vegas was made before the massive stylistic changes of Fallout 4 and its Power Armor. The lack of HUD isn't even the most unimmersive part, it's the clipping with a bunch of animations and the lack of the added "oomph" of stepping in Fallout 4 Power Armor. One thing that FO4 did great was the animations for stepping into Power Armor and the bulkiness of it. It changed the way you play the game extremely. There could be entire builds made around PA in that. In New Vegas, that can never be the case, even with PA mods. It's a sad reality, but F4NV can fix all these problems.

On a side note, I'm one of those people who don't mind the Power Armor in 3/NV. I much prefer the FO4 PA, but there is something oddly charming about having a suit so powerful and useful yet so average and realistic. It looked like kevlar or steel strapped over the top of a bodysuit and was a more realistic take on PA. FO4 PA was more of a mech suit, clearly inspired from something like Titanfall.

@gavin gold wrote:
Of course, there are mods that enhance the vanilla experience, or that arguably should be part of the game in the first place. I think Weapon Mods or Ironsights was something good to come out of the FO3 modding community, and it inspired new features in FNV and FO4. So, I think it can be subjective what mods enhance the game and what mods just turn it into a different thing. But I think it's important to appreciate the game for what it is, not turn it into something else.

I agree. A lot of what Project Nevada or Fallout Wanderer's Edition adds is stuff that can easily fit in with the original vision of the game, hence why I have no problems with those two mods... for the most part.

I'm going to mention Project Nevada (simply because it's fresher in my mind) here when I say that some elements of that mods are absolutely fantastic, while some just put salt in the wound that is the age of New Vegas. Say for example the sprinting or the quick grenade. There's no new animations like what is possible in the updated Fallout 4 engine and the whole feature feels clunky when your camera has a seizure and the only thing that changes is your character's jog speed. I know there are animations out there that change this, but those also don't fit well into what New Vegas is in my opinion. You can tell that it was animated by someone completely different than who animated the default jogging animations in New Vegas. If someone were to replace EVERY animation in the game to fix this issue, it would be an extraordinary and monumental task.

And about the grenade switch, Fallout 4 does this well as you can see your weapon still out while your character uses their non-dominant hand to throw their grenade. In Project Nevada, your weapon is lowered quickly and the grenade is thrown. I know that these are modders and not paid developers, but these are merely the reasons I disable a lot of Project Nevada if I use it.

And from what I know about Wanderer's Edition, while it adds a great element into the game that is Iron Sights, it was clear that FO3 was not meant for that either, but it must've been a part of the original vision for Bethesda since there is an ADS key after all. Even in earlier releases of TTW, the weapons didn't have clear Iron Sights that were easy to see through. Fortunately, they have completely fixed this in later versions in a way that is seamless and immersive.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptySat Aug 08, 2020 2:36 am

@Heisenberg

Quote :
This is exactly what I was trying to hint at. While Drag's PA Overhaul is very impressive, it's clear that New Vegas was never intended for it. It's not Drag's fault, just the fact that New Vegas was made before the massive stylistic changes of Fallout 4 and its Power Armor. The lack of HUD isn't even the most unimmersive part, it's the clipping with a bunch of animations and the lack of the added "oomph" of stepping in Fallout 4 Power Armor. One thing that FO4 did great was the animations for stepping into Power Armor and the bulkiness of it. It changed the way you play the game extremely. There could be entire builds made around PA in that. In New Vegas, that can never be the case, even with PA mods. It's a sad reality, but F4NV can fix all these problems.

On a side note, I'm one of those people who don't mind the Power Armor in 3/NV. I much prefer the FO4 PA, but there is something oddly charming about having a suit so powerful and useful yet so average and realistic. It looked like kevlar or steel strapped over the top of a bodysuit and was a more realistic take on PA. FO4 PA was more of a mech suit, clearly inspired from something like Titanfall.

There's also the fact that proportions are not right. But like you say, it's not Drag's fault, it's just the limitations of the game. I personally use Immersive Power Armor for the frames, FO4 Power Armor features to give it some special features, Titans of the West to fix the proportions as much as possible, Cpt Rex Standing Idle (which isn't exactly for PA but if you rename it, it works and looks similar to FO4) and I decided that when in PA, I'm only going to use Heavy weapons, to avoid clipping. And that's pretty much as good as it gets.

I'd love it if someone could properly fix those issues, but it's something I have learned to deal with because the alternative is so much worse. I've once or twice tried going back to the vanilla PA, but immediately after seeing it in game I think "Nope, I need mods here." PA in FO3/NV doesn't look powered at all, just like a goofy design for a full plate armor. The body is just way too thin, I'm left wondering where is all the machinery supposed to be (with the exception of the power source on the back, and even then). By contrast, the head is ridiculously big. There's no special features, which other high technology pieces like the stealth suit and the riot gear have. The stats are really underwhelming. And I'm not a fan of many stylistic choices. The shoulders on the T45 look plain stupid, and I know many fans of the classics are angry at bethesda for changing the design of the enclave armor, but to me that was an excellent choice; the Remnants armor is the one power armor that actually looks good in vanilla, except for the helmet, which doesn't even look like it would fit a human head.

Quote :
I'm going to mention Project Nevada (simply because it's fresher in my mind) here when I say that some elements of that mods are absolutely fantastic, while some just put salt in the wound that is the age of New Vegas. Say for example the sprinting or the quick grenade. There's no new animations like what is possible in the updated Fallout 4 engine and the whole feature feels clunky when your camera has a seizure and the only thing that changes is your character's jog speed. I know there are animations out there that change this, but those also don't fit well into what New Vegas is in my opinion. You can tell that it was animated by someone completely different than who animated the default jogging animations in New Vegas. If someone were to replace EVERY animation in the game to fix this issue, it would be an extraordinary and monumental task.

And about the grenade switch, Fallout 4 does this well as you can see your weapon still out while your character uses their non-dominant hand to throw their grenade. In Project Nevada, your weapon is lowered quickly and the grenade is thrown. I know that these are modders and not paid developers, but these are merely the reasons I disable a lot of Project Nevada if I use it.

Stylistic clashes can be a problem. Although I feel like more recently that's not an issue anymore. Asurah's animations work perfectly and bring more modern and realistic animations. They work nicely by themselves, but recently I'm trying it in combination with Hitman's animations and it's even better. Just mods (or Just vanilla sprint) let's you sprint with its own custom animation that feels far more natural than what PN did. The B42 project is also great in that regard, precisely because the guys take those things into account. They don't just give you a hotkey to throw grenades (which you could basically do yourself, just asign one of the 1-9 hotkeys to the grenade you like), but actually animate you doing so.

In other words, mods get better and more immersive with time.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptySun Aug 23, 2020 4:03 pm

You added the wrong mods, then. The wrong mods ruin the game, for sure.

As was one of the other posters already said, use only the mods that support your vision of what the game should have been, of what you wish it was. If its vanilla state is what you think it should be, go for it. Or any other vision.

But yeah, there are for instance "ninja anime" type animations for skyrim that would, for me, change it into something that wouldn't be my vision of any fallout or elder scrolls game so I don't use those. So crazy rolling and jumping ninjas, no... but diagonal walking animation? Sure,that's fine. The game looks weird to me without it now, like the mod is fixing a bug.

But I do use the mods that repair the karma, luck, and caravan card game as must-haves. Sharper graphics that don't radically change the game's? Cool. But I wouldn't change it into a big-eyed anime either.

Niner doesn't fit in with the rest of the game stylistically for me, only because he acts so much more like an independent, sometimes inconvenient human than most of the other npcs. He's not just a waking human-shaped gun following you around that occasionally quips at the surroundings. He'd have been even more out of place in fallout 3 compared to the companions there, and steadily more out of place as we go back in time with Bethesda's work, because he's too human. So every once in a while, not fitting in with the rest of the game is actually a good thing, because I never thought it was perfect in the first place .

But even the devs could have used more time to work, so my vision of the game definitely isn't 100% vanilla when the vanilla state isn't even what the developers wanted.

The car mods accomplish some truly amazing technical feats, but they don't feel like they were part of the game for me. New Vegas wasn't built to support cars and you can quickly see why they weren't included. For me the best mods can slide right into the game in a way that if I were playing that way the first time I wouldn't have noticed them as standing out. I remember some really interesting scripting in an oblivion spell mod (forget the name) but the spells very much didn't feel like they were part of the same game and system as the vanilla spells despite (or perhaps because of) their amazing abilities
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyMon Aug 24, 2020 5:53 am

@Sirdanest Ah, the old "modders vision" philosophy. I once had that idea too, but nowadays I tend to think that game designers and directors generally do make more suitable decisions than fans when designing games. Most of the time anyway.

Like, I'll install a mod that turns Fallout 4 into a desert because that's my vision of what Fallout should be, a harsh sandy Wasteland. But my vision is subjective and isn't Fallout 4. It's isn't authentic. I'm not playing Fallout 4, I'm playing my own warped vision of it. The designers clearly didn't want me to play it this way, so sometimes it feels a bit off.

I think it's just a modding first world problem really. There's always the battle of authenticity and cohesion vs fun and customisability, If there was any such thing as a perfect mod list, it would find a clear balance between these two, but maybe I'm just an indecisive bastard.

I'm very picky with quest mods. If custom voices don't fit within the base game or they have terrible sound quality, I won't install it. It's not because I don't like the mod, it's because hearing one NPC speak using professional audio equipment in a studio room in Maryland and then hearing another NPC speak using their headset in their bedroom is very jarring. Fortunately most of the popular mods like Beyond Skyrim or Enderal don't suffer with this much from what I've played of them (or all voices are recorded using similar equipment so it's hard to tell) but many of the lesser known ones do unfortunately.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 9:48 am

@Heisenberg
I have to say I agree with you. When I was a lot younger, I used to push the engine to breaking point with mods; Fallout 3 and New Vegas would be barely recognizable. Today I understand that in many cases, the developers have a clear vision for the game, and that every mechanic was "by design". Therefore, I try to find plugins that enhance these mechanics as opposed to ones that radically change them into something completely different and typically unbalanced. I don't remember the exact mod, but there was this nice WATTZ laser mod for FO4, it looked great but the author couldn't balance the thing in a way that gives it a meaningful purpose in the game's world, even if his life depended on it. I know it isn't easy cramming something new into a game's world in a balanced way, but I deeply respect those authors who manage to pull it off. Those people should consider a relevant career in the game development industry.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 8:54 pm

For me it has always depended on the mods themselves.

Personally my ideal modded Fallout is pretty much enhanced Vanilla. Nothing too out of place, all the armour and weapons fit the theme of the series, no NCR troopers with modern weapons kitted out like Navy seals charging into battle against legionaries in immaculate plate armour.

Stuff like simply uncut, living wasteland and the Someguy series are a must. I agree, for me, mods should be there to enhance the experience, not to turn it into something else entirely.

That said, I also like TTW, New California and similar overhauls, but they still fit within the Fallout world. What I'm saying is as long as it still looks and feels like a Fallout game, and still plays like a fallout game, then I'm fine with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 3:20 am

I disagree with the notion that too many mods ruin a game. It's all about the combination of mods. You can install a hundred really great mods and have a great time. Then you can have a file with 3 mods and it turns boring because the combination of mods ruins the fun. Not all mods are balanced with each other in mind. Like if you add a realism mod that ups all the damage of the vanilla guns, that doesn't pair well with a mod that adds a brand new gun that is balanced to vanilla stats. It's not the amount, but the combination of mods and what those mods are.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 12:12 pm

Too many "random" mods ruin a game, sure. But that's what happens when you combine a ton of mods that don't fit the game's tone and story.

That's not a quantity issue, but a quality one. But then again, "ruined" is all subjective.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 8:03 pm

I think that's a fair opinion to have. I easily go overboard with mods to the point where I spend more time installing than playing!

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyTue Sep 22, 2020 10:16 pm

i understand what you mean for sure. many mods, while great, stick out like (beautiful) sore thumbs, even if they themselves are high quality and made by the talented fans of a series. sometimes i just want a more vanilla experience, and in that case i'd keep the modding to an itty bitty minimum.

in addition, i personally think the process of modding itself, irrespective of the actual game, is fun. the shopping around, figuring out what works and what doesn't, seeing familiar worlds in new ways...it's why i like modding so much. every game i mod i've already played unmodded, and the modding is just an extension of the entertainment they can provide me. it's why i consider modding a hobby that is mostly separate from gaming. i think a lot of people might feel similarly.

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DrCube

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptySun Oct 04, 2020 4:25 am

No. Not really. I got a huge list of mods from weapons, quests, companions, drag's NPC overhauls, New Vegas Redesigned + Brave New World, and on and on. Game's pretty much the better for it. Yes there are breaks in "style" but to say they break or ruin the tone of the game on the whole is quite an overstatement. You'd have to start throwing stuff like a bunch of Star Wars mods into the mix but you decide which mods to use.
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BillyBob88

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyMon Oct 05, 2020 12:21 pm

A game is a vision of a developer and their team, mods are your own taste tailored into the game by a third party source its like buying a nice suit but you decide to take it to a tailor down the street and have them upgrade it or add in more flair on it, mods are your vision and the modders vision thats all if you want to play vanilla then thats your vision and taste too, depends on what floats your boat
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Heisenberg

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyMon Oct 05, 2020 4:00 pm

@BillyBob88 wrote:
A game is a vision of a developer and their team, mods are your own taste tailored into the game by a third party source its like buying a nice suit but you decide to take it to a tailor down the street and have them upgrade it or add in more flair on it, mods are your vision and the modders vision thats all if you want to play vanilla then thats your vision and taste too, depends on what floats your boat

I think there's a distinction to be made in regards to adding more flair vs. turning the suit into a different suit.

I understand that some like to completely change the game and if that's what you want to do, roll with it. But I just see mods that completely change the game as ones that jumble it up and make it less authentic to the true experience.

Games with a high quality are built around cohesion and immersion. You wouldn't spot a photorealistic 4K realistic parallax texture in a game like Overwatch, Breath of The Wild, Team Fortress 2 or Borderlands for instance, because games have art styles and designs that are carefully curated to blend well with each other to reflect the vision the developers wanted it to have. Those games in particular are cartoon-like and cel-shaded and every texture or design is based around this idea. Even the character models are caricatured and over the top.

Now it would be very hard for a modder to completely redesign the game. They would have to recreate every texture from scratch and by the end it might not even be worth doing. Some modders have done so but being a modder they never saw the development or production of the game from an insider perspective, so they still have to work around the vanilla armor, clutter and weapon designs e.g. you can add a cartoony looking texture to a vanilla weapon but that weapon will always reflect the original vision of the game creators through it's mesh e.g a texture won't turn Link into Frodo.

Majority of the texture packs that are on the Nexus don't retexture everything from what I've seen and so it looks quite odd in comparison to the vanilla art style. This is very noticeable in Oblivion or Fallout 4. Both of those game feature quite vivid and cartoony visuals but if the modded texture pack tries to look realistic, textured and weathered, it results in a patchwork of styles that don't blend well with each other. If you go to a Chinese buffet and you find a calzone it's going to look a bit out of place. Imagine my reaction when I installed a texture pack for Oblivion that made the ground and walls look much darker and eroded than vanilla Oblivion, which is supposed to look colorful, vivid and watercolored.

In short if you want to create an entirely new game, the only way it'll truly be a completely new game that looks just as authentic and realised as vanilla is if you get a team together and build the game from scratch like a AAA dev would. That would be a whole lot of work.

Now enough on visuals, I'm going to talk about other elements of the game such as game mechanics.

Sprinting in New Vegas seems to be a cool idea, until you realise that:
A: The animations aren't made by the same dev who rigged New Vegas or 3's animations, so it'll likely stand out like a sore thumb.
B: The world design is not built around this feature. The reason acrobatics was scrapped from Skyrim was because the world design was built around NOT having it there. Acrobatics would've given the player a way to cheat by scaling or jumping across areas of the dungeon that usually would've only been accessible via a lever or an alternate pathway the game wants to lead you to. Similar deal here. Sprinting in New Vegas can give you a way to easily escape some of the creatures that should've killed you e.g. Deathclaws in Deathclaw Sanctuary. Deathclaws in 4 are much faster to combat this.
C: The engine just can't handle it. See how smooth Skyrim or Fallout 4 sprinting is in comparison to New Vegas modded running. It's not as smooth and it feels very clunky.

Oh, and Quick Loot:
A: Similar engine issues. Clutter opening animations not playing or playing incorrectly, slight freeze for a second before the game reads the items with some containers.
B: Interface design is NOT consistent. The Fallout 4 Quickloot for New Vegas mod was probably the biggest example of this. It had Fallout 4's interface design but didn't attempt to redesign the rest of the HUD and UI, essentially meaning that you have all these HUD elements in uniform with each other but the Quick loot menu looks like it was ripped straight out of Fallout 4 and stands out a lot from the original UI. The one from Gribbleshnibit8 suffers from this less so, but still to an extent. The placement of the HUD is different in New Vegas than in 4. The container HUD is bottom rather than center right meaning that the container name is visible twice.  
C: It breaks some quests, noticeably the one in Fallout 3 for the Wasteland Survival Guide. The quest will not register you picking up the food and medicine from the Super Duper Mart if you do not open the container yourself.

Project Nevada is another repeat offender of this:
A: Dynamic crosshair is ugly, not needed to measure recoil, scatter or fire patterns of the guns in New Vegas and overall hilariously huge on screen in comparison to the default HUD.
B: Grenade Hotkey is clunky and tacked on.
C: Bullet time is not needed in New Vegas. We already have VATS.

Now yes, you can say that modding a game is like altering it to your own tastes, but it won't be as authentic, polished or clean as the product you purchased. On top of many mods not fitting well within their own game, they very commonly don't fit well with other mods. Bethesda have their issues with bugs but overall it's mostly simple scripting errors or navmesh problems, not massive engine-scale issues apart from shitty performance on some systems.

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Tribal Raven

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyMon Oct 05, 2020 5:29 pm

@Heisenberg wrote:


Now yes, you can say that modding a game is like altering it to your own tastes, but it won't be as authentic, polished or clean as the product you purchased.

That's assuming you believe that FNV is polished and clean out of the box. I know of very few people who would hold that opinion.

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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyMon Oct 05, 2020 6:46 pm

@Tribal Raven Yeah, but there's a difference with mods that clean or polish the game, say a bug patch, or an open strip mod, or cut content restoration, that kind of thing, vs a mod that changes the game entirely. Even then, I think you gotta be discerning. For example, some cut content is there because there simple was no time to fully develop it, but some was deliberately cut. To me adding back the choice to spare the BoS when siding with House is detrimental to the game, because it eliminates a meaningful choice from the game, which is the reason why it was cut in the first place.

I don't even go as far as him. Modernizing the game mechanics or adding High quality textures packs are worth it, I think, even if there are stylistic clashes, because the age of the game shows. However when you start adding Star Wars content, celebrity cameos or tactical weapons, you've gone too far. None of that is bad per se, but if I want to play COD, I go and play COD I don't add a bunch of guns that make no sense in the Fallout Universe to Fallout.
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Chinpoko117

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyMon Oct 05, 2020 7:11 pm

@gavin gold wrote:
None of that is bad per se, but if I want to play COD, I go and play COD I don't add a bunch of guns that make no sense in the Fallout Universe to Fallout.

Depends on the Call of Duty gun tbh. Black Ops 2, 3 and 4 along with Infinite Warfare and Advanced Warfare guns yeah they don't fit the Fallout games at all. WWII, Black Ops 1 and Cold War and the Modern Warfare series are fair game as far as I'm concerned when weapons like this exist in vanilla Fallout 4 and New Vegas.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game    Unpopular Opinion: Too many mods ruin the game  EmptyMon Oct 05, 2020 7:43 pm

@Chinpoko117 Well, Yes and No. FNV is more western than WWII. Lever action guns, revolvers... that's what makes the bulk of the weaponry. There are more modern weapons but even then, those are most often made out of wood and metal, when in real life life they would've likely been synthetic, because remember that in the Fallout Universe, the world ran out of petroleum long ago. Very often people don't take that into consideration when importing weapons from other franchises.

I actually like the weapon system in FO4 quite a bit because instead of relying so much on real life guns, they went with pipe weapons and (for the most part) their own style of guns. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I've ever seen any real life weapon that looks anything like the FO4 assault rifle.

Another issue I have is that these weapons usually have their proper, technical names, while the vanilla weapons use utilitarian names (you know, like AR-10 vs Service Rifle).

Maybe I should've used another example, like Halo, or Wolfenstein, or something like that, because at least some COD weapons aren't completely out of place. But, I do prefer to stick to vanilla weapons, and re texture those, rather than adding an item that wasn't considered in the first place when they were designing the game.
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