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 Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed

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LamaMilk

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PostSubject: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptySat Jul 18, 2020 3:30 am

Jury Rigging in my eyes is a fantastic perk on paper but inherently falls short under one thing, Dead Money.

Now you may ask why Dead Money makes such a wonderful perk pointless and should be avoided taking up a perk level, well one reason why, limitless Weapon Repair Kits from the Dead Money vending machine located in the Brotherhood Bunker. With coin operator and the complimentary voucher you can buy 100 weapon repair kits ever 3 days to 7 days, solely based on the voucher.

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptySat Jul 18, 2020 11:34 am

Yeah, there are many perks like that. "Them's Good Eating" is another one I don't understand why people tend to make such a fuzz about, as if food or stims were difficult to come by.

Jury Rigging requires 90 repair skill. In NV, repair is mostly used situationally to bypass scavenging for parts, and there's never really a need to have it above 80. So I never even come close to invest as many points as I would need for that.

A lot of people seem to think the treasure of the Sierra Madre is the gold, but that's missing the point completely. The treasure is the chips. You get a basically unlimited supply of repair kits, stims, ammo...
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyTue Aug 04, 2020 11:54 pm

I never really thought about that... Really should pay more attention.

But you do bring up a valid point, mostly I forget to actually travel to the bunker to grab anything. Although I do make sure that I get lots of .308 ammo whenever I can.
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyWed Aug 05, 2020 2:34 am

@Lilkrasdog There are a lot of people out there who think they're experts and they give terrible advice. Or maybe it was valid at some point but the DLC made the advice pointless and they never updated. I once saw someone saying that "you really should pick Tribal Wisdom (I think that's called, the one that let's you eat bugs) because food is so rare". Makes me wonder what game have they been playing.

But look at it like this:
- I have no idea how many chips are in the Sierra Madre for sure, but if you're thorough, and I am, you can easily get at least 5000. The snowglobe alone gives you 2000, and with the amount of cigarettes and pre war clothes lying around (and keep in mind this is from someone who uses mods to clean the wasteland) I usually get the Chip aficionado achievement about the time I get the first member of the crew.
- The Hologram vendors, of which I think there are 5 or 6. All carry 2500 Pre War Money. Again, if you're thorough, you can find a lot of stuff to sell to them. Mods that increase the difficulty usually make Pre War Money less valuable but that has the unintended consequence of making Dead Money even more lucrative, because you can buy all of it, and more Pre War Money, means more chips, once you get to the Casino.
- The Casino itself has a winnings cap of 10000. That doesn't take into consideration the complimentary vouchers that you get.

Now 1 voucher (1000 chips) is enough for 100 repair kits. So do the math: 5000 just by scavenging + 10000 from the casino + 1000 from the voucher + all the pre war money you get from vendors (a max of 15000). You can buy enough super stims, repair kits, doctor bags, med x.... that you would never run out even if you never return again.

Say you're not convinced, because armor can't be repaired that way. OK. First, the only item that genuinely benefits from this perk is power armor, and specially the Remnants armor, because power armor is very rare, and in the case of the enclave armor it can only be repaired with other enclave armor and there's only two of them in the game. Lonesome Road has these commissaries that respawn their money immediately every time they fall under 200 caps and there's a ton of incredibly valuable stuff lying around. All you have to do is pick your opponents clean, and sell their stuff right there. You're going to be rolling in caps in no time. You'll have so many caps that if you use a mod to give them weight, you might not even be able to continue because you have so many. And that's not even considering the areas you can nuke (I usually only nuke the legion because I actually like the NCR), which have incredible loot. I think you can cough up the money every now or then to get your armor repaired.
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyWed Aug 05, 2020 9:51 pm

It's just an alternative option. It has a lot of uses, depending on playstyle and character build.

Personally, I don't use high strength on a lot of my builds, so carry weight is limited. I also like playing on hardcore, meaning I have to consider all the weight I can carry has to cover my gear, ammo, provisions and chems, so there's not a lot of room for me to carry around dozens of repair kits to keep all my gear 100% all the time.
Jury rigging means I can repair weapons on the fly with similar guns I pick up off dead enemies, rather than identical weapons, so any weapons falling under a weapon type, light rifles, pistols, knives etc. that are usually pretty scarce I can easily repair with common weapons picked up off of dead npcs.
Then there's the waiting, fast travel and other issues with relying purely on the Sierra Madre reward. In Hardcore mode, these things become less feasible because you still have to eat sleep and drink. You can't just wait for weeks to get a few supplies.

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyWed Aug 05, 2020 11:12 pm

@IRORIEH Dude, when someone says "I play in hardcore, therefore X", I don't think they realize that pretty much we all play hardcore. I don't know a single person who doesn't. In fact, many of us use mods to make it even more demanding (I set it to 4x) because despite its name, hardcore mode isn't that hardcore at all. There's always a source of clean water nearby, whether it is a well or a water merchant, and bottled water is plentiful. Fruit grows all around the wasteland, there's animals you can hunt and merchants who sell food, and it never rots. And this is coming from someone who, for roleplaying purposes, won't eat any of the disgusting meats, just bighorner, iguana and squirrel. Sleep isn't a problem and once you make it to the strip and can buy atomic cocktails in bulk, you never need to sleep again. If you're playing hardcore in 2020 you're the rule, not the exception.

When I get out of the madre I carry like 200 repair kits. I go to the base at the SINK, leave most of them stored and take around 4. Trust me, that won't have an impact on your carry weight. And there's no "waiting for weeks to get a few supplies".

When the weapon condition falls below 75%, I ask ED-E to repair it. Since time goes by so fast, that usually suffices. If it doesn't I can use one or two of the repair kits. It lasts for a few days, until I go back to the base to pick up stuff or sell what I have.
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyWed Aug 05, 2020 11:30 pm

If you're using JE Sawyer, with 3 strength to optimise other SPECIAL stats, then you have a base 100 carry weight.


You're relying too heavily on the idea that everyone is playing the same build, playstyle and configuration that you are. Hence why I said it's an alternative. If that's not the way you play your game, that's fine, I'm just explaining why I find it useful, and why I enjoy it over repair kits. I also don't use ED-E and the SINK for every play through, and every character if they don't fit the role, so that's not always an option.

As for waiting for weeks, I was talking about the sierra madre chips reward in the BoS bunker. I don't rely on them because I don't want to wait for them, I also, don't always play dead money on every character. It doesn't really fit the way I play is the main reason, which again, is super subjective. You're free to play the game however you like, but you seem to be missing the point that those perks exist to allow for alternate playstyles. Some people wanna play a character who builds and repairs all their gear from scratch, some people wanna play a savage who eats their enemies, hence "Them's Good Eating."  The perks just offer you the option to immerse yourself a little more in your choice of character. In other words, they let you role play.

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyWed Aug 05, 2020 11:52 pm

@IRORIEH No, I'm not assuming everyone plays the way I do. The whole issue is whether the perk is needed or not. You can of course elect to play as a savage and as such "Them's good eating" is good for roleplay, and if that's what you want, then perfect. But that doesn't change the fact that food is plentiful and that is in no way shape or form a perk that you need to take to survive or even a useful perk. Again, if you do it purely for roleplay, then sure (I like Lady Killer and Sneering Imperialist purely for roleplay even though they're basically useless). However, to claim it's needed is a whole different thing. Because that's no longer about roleplaying, that's about game mechanics. You're free to not do Dead Money, doesn't mean it isn't there.
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 12:39 am

I take issue with that, purely because it's exactly that opinion that leads to the incredibly barebones levelling system of Fallout 4.

I feel you're still missing the point. YOU feel the perk isn't needed because YOU don't use it. Something being there and not being necessary to do is the entire concept of role play. It's about doing content to immerse yourself in the world. Building a character who fits in that setting, so choosing not to do it is you taking authorship of your own character and creating a narrative within that world. Mechanically yes, that content is still there. Mechanically, you could have every perk in the game, max skills, all the ammo you could ever need, and so on. By your logic, where do you stop? How do you define what is necessary or essential? There are plenty of quests or locations, characters, enemies and items that you could define as useless to the overall plot but exist to enhance the experience and add depth to the world. If we were just dealing with what is mechanically necessary to the games core narrative, or mechanics, then by that logic, all of that is as useless as perks like Jury Rigging.

But that's not how RPG's are meant to be played. That's the beauty of non-linear, choice based storytelling. I feel you're kind of mistaken, or I'm misreading your comment, but it's just you that's talking about mechanics. What I'm talking is purely role play. I don't approach the game in a way where I'm looking to optimise it, or make my character all encompassing. I'll tailor play to the character I'm building, as do many people, if you follow something like the New Year Playthroughs, you'll see others doing the same. 

I'm saying it's needed to give people the option. It's availability adds depth to the character design, and it doesn't matter if the technicalities make it useless if you play a certain way, because you could just as easily not play that way.

I just don;t understand the opposition to roleplay elements in a roleplaying game. Regardless of the fact that most of the perks you mentioned do provide gameplay bonuses, like extra damage, or dialogue options, they also allow you to define you character in ways that otherwise may not be available. To add depth and tell a story. It shouldn't matter that food is plentiful. If you wanna play a cannibal, or a guy who eats giant insects or blood sausages, you should be able to. That's the point of including stuff like this. Again, the mechanics, or the alternatives shouldn't necessitate their removal because they exist to function as alternatives.

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 1:14 am

@IRORIEH OK, let me explain because maybe I'm not getting the point across.

I like Lady Killer. I usually play high charisma characters and I think that fits well. It gives roleplaying value and in some occasions makes quests easier.

I like Sneering Imperialist as well. Besides some cool dialogue, I think that fits my own personality and the characters that I usually like to play as (I don't like raiders, junkies and the like).

When I pick them, it's mostly for roleplaying reasons. It's not that I need the small damage bonus against female opponents and raiders, I don't even think it helps that much since they go down really easily. I just like, as you say define the character in ways that otherwise may not be available, add depth and tell a story. It's the same reason why I prefer Lady Killer over Comfirmed Bachelor, even though the latter is much more useful.

But I would not claim that those are perks that are necessary for you or anyone else to pick. There's a difference between perks you take for roleplaying reasons, and others such as Better Criticals or Nerves of Steel, which don't offer much in terms on roleplaying but they're useful game mechanics.

And that's the issue. Do you want to pick Tribal Wisdom for immersion purposes because you want to play as a tribal? Go ahead, you can make whatever character you like. Do you want to claim, as I have seen people do, that "it's such a must in Hardcore because food is so scarce, and starvation is such an issue"? That's just objectively not true.

Jury Rigging is one of those perks. Just about everyone I've seen claims this is THE perk, the one you should always pick regardless of build, the most useful one... They give it a gameplay importance it simply doesn't have. You can pick it if you think it's fun to be able to repair Power Armor with Metal Armor or an AMR with a BB gun, or because you like to play some sort of engineer or maybe like a tech-survivalist that can salvage just about anything useful from a broken piece of junk. That's not the issue. It just isn't the indispensable thing many people make it to be. That's what this whole thing is about.
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 1:37 am

It's more of an issue with game mechanics than the perk itself. Personally I've never seen the need for high STR or the Strong Back perk. If I need extra carry weight, I'll just pop some Buffout and Whiskey and drop some of the more useless items in my inventory. Chances are I'll find them again sooner or later. If not I'll just dump them on a dead corpse and carry the corpse back to town where I can proceed to sell all the items stashed on this rotting raider I've just dragged 15 miles through the sand. Those situations are rare, but they justify the use of Fixer if I need it or the Chem Resistant perk.

That being said, I'll still argue that it shouldn't be removed entirely. If someone was using a different build to myself then it would likely be much harder to circumvent addiction and withdrawal debuffs. Lucky for me I always take Chem Resistant because drugs are fun. It's more of a problem with how the game is designed.

You can find food everywhere. This isn't a flaw with Them's Good Eating, just New Vegas itself. That's what has bugged me about 3, NV and 4. You'd think that 200 years after an atomic war that all the food and supplies would've been scavenged decades prior to the player's arrival. Instead, you find Stimpaks and Doctor's Bags still in First Aid Kits, you still find leftover food in kitchens and you still find ammo and spare guns in the most obvious of places. I understand that it's a decision made to make the journey easier for new players, but it completely ruins the tone of the game. It also ends up ruining some perks like Cannibal, which I have taken a staggering 1 time across my many playthroughs over 12 years of playing games in this franchise. And that was only to see how funny it would be to eat a raider in front of a BoS Knight at the library!

That being said, Repair has been a joke skill for a long time. Even if you have repair 20-30 which most builds have by default you can still repair 80% of the weapons you'll find at low levels, meaning that upgrading Repair is only useful if you have rare weapons and armor and by the time you get them, you'll have a buttload of caps to repair them with anyway. Majority of players aren't going around using rare weapons because most rare weapons use rare ammo anyway. There's no point in repairing an alien blaster you have no ammo for. Most experienced players will level up Guns or Laser Weapons and then use common weapons that are easy to repair, maintain and have common ammo.

The best formation for a build in 3 and NV consists of three primary skills:

1. Any Guns skill
2. Lockpick or Science for loot
3. Speech or Barter for caps OR Medicine for Health (where Repair often is placed).

You see, Repair is useless in the grand scheme of things because if you use another stat instead, you save and gain more caps than you end up needing, leading to vendors and Weapon Repair Kits being cheap.

Say for example, you pick Medicine. Stimpaks are very expensive. If you know what you're doing you can easily survive on the few Stimpaks you have from the start of the game until at least levels 6-8, saving buckets full of caps in the process.

If you pick Barter, you can sell everything you find and won't end up needing for easy caps. If you pick Speech, you can persuade NPCs to straight up double or triple your reward. You can then proceed to use those spare caps to let vendors repair your loot.

Repair is one of the most overrated stats. I've never found a use for it. Jury Rigging is therefore also overrated.

As said previously however, this is my own perspective. I often use very similar builds and playstyles and never venture out of my most common playstyle. I often use High INT, PER and LCK or AGL and never differ. My experience is therefore very biased.

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 2:24 am

@Heisenberg

Quote :
That being said, I'll still argue that it shouldn't be removed entirely.


No, of course not. Like I said, It can be a fun perk depending on your playstyle, it just doesn't have the usefulness people want to attribute to it.

Quote :
You can find food everywhere. This isn't a flaw with Them's Good Eating, just New Vegas itself. That's what has bugged me about 3, NV and 4. You'd think that 200 years after an atomic war that all the food and supplies would've been scavenged decades prior to the player's arrival. Instead, you find Stimpaks and Doctor's Bags still in First Aid Kits, you still find leftover food in kitchens and you still find ammo and spare guns in the most obvious of places.

I think it's a problem with the way the game is designed. The problem isn't that there's food lying around. People make food, and there are animals to hunt and fruit to gather. For role playing reasons, I try to eat only fresh food, and I don't eat any disgusting stuff, so no rad roach, rat, bloatfly or any of those kinds of meat. I also have a mod that cleans all the junk (because, like you said, most places should've been picked clean already). And hunger is still no problem at all. It decays way too slowly, and even if you fix this with a mod, the effect it has is minimal. You need to be completely starving, at the precipice of death, to actually feel the effect. But why would you ever get there? There's food everywhere.

I've seen games where food rots after a few hours, so there's actually some care you need to put into gathering supplies, or the effects of hunger are far more debilitating, not one less point in Strength. It also doesn't help that it's so easy to be rolling in caps, or that the world is so empty, that procuring supplies is such an easy task.

If someone wants to pick Them's Good Eating or Tribal Wisdom for the roleplay, that's perfectly fine. But when someone claims that it's one of the most necessary perks because otherwise you'll be constantly starving, I'm left wondering what game exactly have they been playing.

Quote :
That being said, Repair has been a joke skill for a long time. Even if you have repair 20-30 which most builds have by default you can still repair 80% of the weapons you'll find at low levels, meaning that upgrading Repair is only useful if you have rare weapons and armor and by the time you get them, you'll have a buttload of caps to repair them with anyway. Majority of players aren't going around using rare weapons because most rare weapons use rare ammo anyway. There's no point in repairing an alien blaster you have no ammo for. Most experienced players will level up Guns or Laser Weapons and then use common weapons that are easy to repair, maintain and have common ammo.

YES. Exactly. That's what I tell to everyone that insists that Jury Rigging is indispensable. It isn't difficult at all to keep laser or hunting rifles in top condition. And by the time you get the rare weapons and armor, you already have so much caps that who cares? You just pay people to repair them.
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PostSubject: Re: Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed    Fallout New Vegas: Why Jury Rigging isnt needed  EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 4:20 am

@gavin gold wrote:
If someone wants to pick Them's Good Eating or Tribal Wisdom for the roleplay, that's perfectly fine. But when someone claims that it's one of the most necessary perks because otherwise you'll be constantly starving, I'm left wondering what game exactly have they been playing.


I agree. I'd argue that the Survival stat in general might be good for roleplay, but shockingly nonessential for anything else. Partly due to already mentioned abundance of food and also due to the fact that radiation is a joke in 3/NV. Even with Jsawyer, rad poisoning is so easy to get rid of that cooking fresh food is rather pointless. Finding a campfire in New Vegas is very rare to come by as well, and I can't help but wonder how amazing the Survival stat could've been had it featured a perk where you can build and maintain your own campfire and bring along tents. Sort of like Frostfall from Skyrim. Unfortunately that's something that can only be achieved with mods.

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