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 Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?

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Sirdanest

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PostSubject: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptySat Oct 26, 2019 3:03 pm

spoilers: Tempers flare on fallout 4, but I genuinely want to know something. So I'm taking a risk. I truly don't want to end up in a rage-filled thread here, but I know that might happen from some conversations I've had in the past.

I sympathize with people who were not happy with fallout 4 on release day, especially if they had hope against hope that it would be a return to New Vegas style.

But let's say I've had a conversation with someone:

Me: How did you get past Oblivion's faces?
Person: I modded them of course. It didn't make them perfect, but at least it was playable.

Me: You're on your fourth playthrough of Skyrim? How can you do that with a vanilla setup?
Person: Well I'm running a few hundred mods.

Me: I love New Vegas, but mods can make it even better.
Person: I agree.

Person: I hate vanilla fallout 4 so much.
Me: Yeah, I hoped for more. Did you fix any of the problems with mods? I mean, it'll never be new vegas, but mods fix a lot of the problems.
Person: No, I didn't use mods to fix any of the things that are making me angry.

What is different about fallout 4, that for the very first time, veteran Bethesda fans won't do what they've been doing all along -- modding away at least some of the problems? It'll still be imperfect and not up to the more complex standard of New Vegas, but... so many of the problems were fixed a long time ago by the modders. Why does that not matter, for the very first time?

I apologize again for opening this can of worms, but the internet is inundated with people complaining about things that were fixed ages ago that it wears on me a bit.

One example: If you really hate Preston that much (and I get it, I do), blow his head off, then lead the raiders to conquer the world or whatever tickles your fancy. Hell, violently put someone silly like the Pillars of the Community is charge of the Commonwealth if you're really into bizarre glitterhoof-becomes-pope-style-challenges (sorry, crusader kings 2 reference.)
I agree with you, feeling very forced to put up with his map-pointing obsession would be annoying, but this was fixed a while ago, but people are still mad about it. It was almost sort of funny, he innocently asking for help and then is riddled by bullets from his sociopathic, bloodthirsty would-be rescuer, who was probably screaming something that left Preston baffled, "PRESTON YOU MAP-POINTING BASTARD! POINT AT THIS!" bang bang bang

Mods counted toward the overall reputation of Skyrim for many of us even if we felt that it was never going to be the deepest rpg on the planet, but mods don't count with Fallout 4's reputation, not even a little, apparently.
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TastyHands

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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptySat Oct 26, 2019 3:51 pm

Fallout 4 mods couldn't completely fix the issues I had with the game, whereas I can still play New Vegas completely vanilla and enjoy it.

I don't review games based on the quality of their mods. Fallout New Vegas at vanilla levels is head and shoulders above Fallout 4 in every way in my opinion. Sure mods can make both games better, but it's unfair to review a developer's work based on additions made by someone completely different. That's like rating the Mona Lisa based on someone repainting it themselves.

To sum it up, Fallout 4's mods don't fix all my issues, but even if they did. Fallout New Vegas at vanilla is a better game than Fallout 4 at vanilla. As for the Skyrim thing. People can make the same comparisons with Skyrim vs Morrowind. Or to a degree Skyrim vs Oblivion.(Although Morrowind tends to have more militant fans than oblivion.)

This of course all comes down to opinions.
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptySat Oct 26, 2019 4:55 pm

@TastyHands wrote:
Fallout 4 mods couldn't completely fix the issues I had with the game, whereas I can still play New Vegas completely vanilla and enjoy it.

I don't review games based on the quality of their mods. Fallout New Vegas at vanilla levels is head and shoulders above Fallout 4 in every way in my opinion. Sure mods can make both games better, but it's unfair to review a developer's work based on additions made by someone completely different. That's like rating the Mona Lisa based on someone repainting it themselves.

To sum it up, Fallout 4's mods don't fix all my issues, but even if they did. Fallout New Vegas at vanilla is a better game than Fallout 4 at vanilla. As for the Skyrim thing. People can make the same comparisons with Skyrim vs Morrowind. Or to a degree Skyrim vs Oblivion.(Although Morrowind tends to have more militant fans than oblivion.)

This of course all comes down to opinions.

Well, you're not really the sort of person I was referring to... you could play those games vanilla in the first place apparently, so you'd have no reason to expect fallout 4 to need mods. I'm talking about people who don't like these games vanilla, so they modded them, all of them. Except for Fallout 4, where people are still angry about (some) things that have been fixed. By comparison, not so many players are mad at Skyrim over things that were fixed by mods ages ago. There's a discrepancy here that I don't quite understand.

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TastyHands

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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptySat Oct 26, 2019 4:58 pm

Without sounding like I'm being confrontational. It's a bit disingenuous to ignore a response because it doesn't fit your definition. Especially when you have no evidence to support your initial statement. I feel like people that didn't like Fallout New Vegas either didn't play Fallout 4, or prefer Fallout 4 how it is.

There's also a different market for Elder Scrolls and Fallout. Different markets tolerate different things.
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyMon Oct 28, 2019 1:14 am

There's just not enough modding in the world to complete overhaul the issues most of us have with that game. On a fundamental level, at the base design philosophy level, the game isn't what some people were a fans of in the previous titles. You'd have to undo the entire perk system, somehow bring back skills, completely overhaul the dialogue, re-write dead ends and lore breaking moments of the main story and side quests...you'd have to completely make a new game to fix some of the major issues people had with Fallout 4. There's just no way to completely mod it into the kind of game some people were looking forward to, as a follow-up to New Vegas.

Not to mention, just comparing vanilla versions, New Vegas still beats out what Fallout 4 is as a roleplaying experience (you know these ARE roleplaying games, the main title series anyway), so even disregarding the differences between modded and not modded gameplay, Fallout 4 was still a disappointment.
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyMon Oct 28, 2019 1:50 am

I get it, being mad about things in fallout 4 that will never and can never be fixed. That makes sense. I do it too. I was disappointed that it didn't feel like what I'd come to expect of an rpg.

But being mad about the things that actually have been fixed? That confuses me, because it only happens for fallout 4.
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyMon Oct 28, 2019 10:46 am

@"Sirdanest"
I've never had any experience with someone being mad that something was "fixed"...to even have an opinion on that, I'd have to know what was fixed and how it was fixed.
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bugalha

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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyMon Oct 28, 2019 11:52 am

fallout and elder scrools fans are differents man, but take in note that both fallout 4 and skyrim lost a lot of it roleplay potentiall and thats what make people angry from what i saw.

lets say that u are roleplaying in skyrim a warrior that never uses magica and needs to get the gaundur amulet(or simple want to go to college to ask about the older scroll) how u gona get it whitout joining the college? whit a mod.

thats what pissy me off, you are required to enter even if you dont whant it.

i never played much off fallout 4 i cant argue about that game, but i liked it, well, the combat and the engine.

what i whant to say is that people hate fallout 4 and skyrim because of the lost of its rpgs elements. and sadly mods cant fix all.

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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyTue Oct 29, 2019 4:43 am

My main issue above all else removal of of the main RPG elements, you're choices in the main story are almost always the yes it's just if your nice, mean or sarcastic about it.
Gone are skill points instead you just get perks which make it feel more like a looter shooter rather then an rpg and just how the main story went along, unless a bunch of modders got together and completely redid Fallout 4 from the ground up no mods will be able to fix it, the foundation is terrible and it's a lot of hard work that need to be done to make it better and not enough people liked it to care to do it.

Many talented modders aren't bothering with Fallout 4 and remained in New Vegas which is why mods are coming out slower then Fallout 3 & New Vegas.

the former games had good or good enough foundations to build upon that mods only made the experience better it's not the same with Fallout 4 what is there isn't great for a lot of people so trying to make it better to them is like polishing a turd.
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyTue Oct 29, 2019 5:31 am

Fallout 4 buggy release is not even a problem, if new vegas can be fixed with mods, so can fo4. But Fallout 4 will never be as fun as new vegas imo. Unless you replace every quest with something fun, well written, and something emotional (I do not give a shit about the spouse or son i never met). FO4 will need A LOT of mods.

Skyrim is not that bad, the bugs make it charming. It was your own story with your own choices you could make (somewhat - more than FO4 for sure).

FO4 Protagonist has a background story (which removes roleplaying somewhat) is integrated to the main plot that is hard to get emotionally invested in (unless you are roleplaying a neutral good father who was a war veteran - maybe) that turns this Open World RPG into a fucking Open World F P S.

Now, if you like FPS, thats cool. But for me, not a fan of this one (Bioshock would be better)

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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2019 7:15 pm

Let's face it, Fallout 4 with mods become hooker posing and rendering engine for at least 70% of those who has it on their hard drive (just go and check Nexus image share). Things do not happen without reasons, and reasons for this clearly explained in posts above. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2019 8:26 pm

Personally... Fallout 4 has its issues yes. It is a very watered down RPG. The story felt very linear and although there were 4 factions to chose from it still seemed very cookie cutter. While NV and even 3 had a myriad of options and choices the stripping down of the dialogue tree to 4 basic responses was just a bad move. Gone were the branching narratives and choice/consequences.

That being said.. I am currently at almost 4000 hours into FO4. On probably my 20+ full play through (not counting all the times I have restarted/re-installed etc)

Mods have been the great boon of the gods for this game. without them I surely would not be still bashing away. As others have said. Mods cannot fix everything that IS wrong with FO4 but they do make it better. The biggest issue being the Dialogue and lack of evil choices. I know you can join the Institute but thats much later in the story. Nuka world tried to tack on a raider theme but it felts very much like a "Oh crap we forgot roleplaying" and as a result if you dont want to do a raider play through Nuka World is almost a write off.

Too much focus was put on the Settlement system when there could of been endless hours of additional side quests etc. Some of the cut content too makes me weep. The whole underwater vault and the Ghoul Whale would of been probably the best quests in game.

Then there is the issue with other DLC. Far Harbour was amazing hats off to them for that one. Automatron had potential but was unfortunately far to short and linear (no real choice options on this at all) Nuka world we already covered. then what 4 settlement DLC's they could of scrapped all 4 of them and had an additional Story based DLC.

Now there are quest/DLC sized mods out there that do work well and some even use a voiced protagonist which is an admirable feat.

Then there is performance issues. FO4 was such a tank on the system in vanilla you almost have to play with mods just to run a smooth game.

Graphics were not great. Not bad but not great for a game of its time should really have been so much better. All Hail ENB!

Positives though. Gun play/ Weapon customization. truly knocked out the park on this. Non vats combat is fluid and enjoyable. Melee however sucks. Almost no care was given to that side of it. Sneaking with melee weapons doing some kind of sideways crab walk the f is that all about?

In summary. Could I play fallout 4 without mods... Hell no. Will I continue to play it even after all these hours in game.. Hell yes. Is it a deeply flawed game? Yup. Do mods help? Abso-f-ing-lutely

Oh yes and one last note Bethesda... Scrap a voiced protagonist and expand on the choices in future releases. Oh and learn from your mistakes in FO76 PLEASE!
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptySun Nov 03, 2019 12:33 pm

@vandenburger wrote:

In summary.   Could I play fallout 4 without mods...   Hell no.   Will I continue to play it even after all these hours in game.. Hell yes.   Is it a deeply flawed game?   Yup.   Do mods help?  Abso-f-ing-lutely  


Seems like a fair assessment.

That being said, you rightly mentioned a lot of things that were wrong with the game -- much like how people can rightly mention things that were wrong with skyrim. Other than the dialogue though, there are mods that fix these things. I have a feeling it's because skyrim fixes are very, very easy to find; if you think that dragons are too easy, searching for dragons on the nexus will get a million fixes. Fallout fixes often don't have really obvious names.

Let's say you don't like the over-reliance on building settlements. Sim Settlements with the rise of the commonwealth and/or conquerer takes care of that. With rise of the commonwealth, if you "own" a settlement, you can appoint a mayor who will go about building the necessities for you. With Conqueror, you can have every/some/none of the settlements, right from the beginning of the game, building and living and recruiting completely on their own, even before you find the settlement. With the right settings, could come across Abernathy farm (or some other settlement) for the first time and find that it's grown into a large settlement.

This is an example of a settlement that the settlers built on their own without the player, if you so choose to let them do so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1rP64DXxIU
It'd take them a long while to reach this point, though, especially if you completely ignored them and didn't offer any support.

As for evil choices, with conqueror, you could then pound Abernathy (or any other settlement) into submission, ensalve them all, and use them to serve your growing empire. Force them into the faction of your choice.

With the depravity mod, you can be a slaver, or all manner of psychotically evil choices. I haven't experienced this one too much yet, though, so I can't vouch for its quality yet. But it's certainly in the right direction.

With project Valkyrie, you could do all kinds of logical things, like take over the institute, free the synths, and potentially find a way to make peace with the other factions as a result. I haven't reached end-game with this mod yet either, but it sure sounds sensible.

People are still mad about things like the settlement system, that sim settlements seems to have completely fixed. I assume it's because none of these things are named in a way that would make them show up obviously to someone doing a quick search for solutions.

No fix for the watered down dialogue though. Dammit.

The main quest, though, I guess is a matter of preference. Unless I'm playing a deliberately psychotic character, the story of a baby kidnapped and out there in the apocalypse somewhere was absolutely enough to motivate me... driven like a bee-line to solve it. On the other hand, as much as I loved New Vegas, I didn't really find myself giving a damn about hunting down Benny. I had a "I'll get to it eventually" attitude...which actually fits in pretty good with Bethesda. I think they write their games with the assumption that you're going to ignore the main quest for a long time.
Kind of like how in Witcher 3 I prioritized improving my card collection over finding Ciri. Games are weird like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptySun Nov 03, 2019 11:09 pm

@"Sirdanest"
I'm sure for some people the kidnapped son motivation is enough, and for others they couldn't care less. Let's face it, some people aren't parents, don't have any fondness for kids, and otherwise wouldn't feel like they had any feelings about it one way or another without either of those things to back it up. Some people just play a video game, and therefore can't get that kind of emotional investment in a storyline that has you pursuing a missing family member (I know people complained about it with your father in FO3).

For me, it's something else entirely. In NV I had an option. I would always be a courier that was shot in the head and left for dead after getting rolled by Great Khans and a guy in a crappy suit. BUT, that doesn't tell you anything about my character or my motivations, just how I ended up in a dusty town, with a head wound. You don't know anything about who I was before the incident, what kinds of skills I have, or why I worked making deliveries across the desert. You don't know if I'm a local, how long I've been around in this region, or what my disposition is. You also don't know if I'd even be eager to hunt down the guy that shot me, but the option is there if I want/need it. Besides that, it's everything I get to do for myself with my own justifications for all the actions I choose to take. You don't get that in FO4. You get a character whose history is entirely fleshed out right at the start, who has a spouse and a son, is already of a certain age, and has a driving motivation for participating in the story. So when you choose to disconnect from those per-established things, it feels "off". It leaves you wondering why he/she is acting out of character. And that's one of the core issues that's hard to just set aside or undo with this game, because everything centers around that.
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptySun Nov 03, 2019 11:46 pm

Yeah that's fair I guess. I actually prefer how the elder scrolls does it. It forces absolutely nothing on your character's background. You always start as a prisoner, but you're free to decide for yourself if you were actually guilty of anything.
Then you're exposed to a "main plot" that cruel maniacs, noble heroes, and selfish loners very well might want to get involved in -- most people want to save the world from dragons or demons, because it's where the keep all their stuff.
I definitely had a fallout 3 character who was such a maniac that he'd been perfectly comfortable shooting his dad (because reasons?), and would have gleefully joined the enclave if there had been an opportunity for a fully developed enclave option.
Benny/Dad/Son are not, in my opinion, the best choices for a game like this. But Benny wasn't really the "main plot" that he appeared to be in the beginning. The real choice was the faction choice in New Vegas. But unlike Fallout 3, all four faction choices were completely viable depending on your character's goals and temperament. I don't know if I've ever seen any other game that allowed for that much freedom and variety of choice in the main plot. Falloout 4 comes the closest to NV with multiple faction choices, but the factions weren't deep enough to count. People will forever be debating the NV factions, and I don't know if any other game will ever match that achievement.

It's sort of a shame. Because of Obsidian's work on New Vegas, I think the fallout fanbase will forever be trapped in a state of anger and disappointment, even if Bethesda pulls their heads out of their '76 asses, which I doubt they will. Well, until all the old-timers are gone and the new players don't know or care how much the series has changed.

I sort of wish Fallout 4 had just been some new franchise called "Moddable Apocalypse Settlement Builder." Smile People would have said "Well, not as good as Fallout," but wouldn't have been absolutely furious either.

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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyMon Nov 04, 2019 2:17 am

@ Sirdanest (Original Post)

I might have an unpopular opinion with this, But I think an individual's Fallout preferences all come down do what Fallout game they first played. Fallout veterans, who've played Fallout since the beginning, will most likely prefer Fallout New Vegas. Those who are long time Bethesda fans, and those who are new to Fallout. Probably played Fallout 3 as their first Fallout game, and will probably prefer Fallout 3 and Fallout 4.

Fallout Veterans are used to Obsidian's (and their predecessors) designs. While newcomers who've played Fallout 3 are used to Bethesda's design. I think what it ultimately comes down to is a very split player base. You have hard core Bethesda fans, who love games like Fallout 3 and Fallout 4. While you have hardcore Obsidian fans, who prefer classic Fallout and Fallout New Vegas.

Bethesda fans most likely will love Fallout 4, and Obsidian fans will most likely hate Fallout 4 with a passion. So I think where the bitterness comes in, is that Fallout Veterans hate the fact that a different company is working on Fallout, with their own designs and concepts, and is not being designed by Obsidian, of which they too, have their own designs and concepts.

I could be completely and totally wrong with my perception with this. But this is what I have observed from people opinions.
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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyMon Nov 04, 2019 4:42 pm

I started with Fallout 3 and enjoyed exploring the Capital Wasteland and fighting off mutants, ghouls and all sorts of abominations - the main storyline was well-done in my opinion at the time. Then I went on to New Vegas; and it got me working off on securing friendships with other factions - it almost made the world felt alive.

Don't get me wrong, Fallout 4 wasn't perfect, it has its flaws with the removal of several options that previous Fallout games had and the main story arc wasn't that interesting. 3 of the 4 joinable factions available more or less had the same ending. But I do like the introduction of Settlement Building and I hope that they would consider it for Elder Scrolls 6 or future Fallout (SINGLE PLAYER) franchises (not the failure that is FO76)

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PostSubject: Re: Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time?   Maybe I should apologize for this thread ahead of time? EmptyTue Nov 05, 2019 1:40 am

I suspect that people won't mind being able to build. Most people who really hated the settlements were upset that it felt forced on them.
How many people who played Hearthfire wished that the house-building options were more developed? Probably quite a few, so it's no wonder then that Bethesda said, "Oh, you want more options for building? Ok here." It's just... people really hated Preston's nuisance behavior and the minute men seemed connected to the settlement system in those days.
The things really dedicated builders have created... well, some really impressive things. Amazes me to watch the videos of huge settlements, the things people have managed to do that I never would have thought of myself.
Typically, in these games, I'm inevitably disappointed with most of the buyable player houses. I can do better.
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