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 Why House is the only real option

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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Faction: House
Level: 50

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2019 9:20 pm

@"xtheoutcastedx" OK, but I want to point out a couple of things because people seem to keep bringing it up.

- House is easy to kill: Yeah, I'm not going to dispute that. But, notice that every single important non-boss character is also easy to kill. People are trying to draw some meaning out of the fact that he's easy to kill, like they want it to be some sort of story telling trick used by the devs to tell us something about his personality. It's just Bethesda being Bethesda; That's one of their quirks. There's not a single one of their games where important characters don't lack proper security.

- House may die: I guess technically speaking that's possible, but that technology of his has kept him alive for more than 200 years and it was good enough to survive the apocalypse. I would say it seems pretty reliable.

Now, as for a couple of things you said:

- A leader can't live if he never leaves that tower: I don't agree. The securitron army seems perfectly capable of carrying out his orders.

- He allows cannibalism right in his own backyard: No. The White Glove Society was forced to give up cannibalism as part of their contract. That's why Mortimer has to be so secretive about it.

- The kings: People keep saying that the Kings protect Freeside and keep order. Did I miss something? Where in the game do you see that exactly? Freeside is a shithole. You can't walk two blocks without some hobo trying to hack you to pieces. I don't think there's one NPC that says something positive about the Kings. Not to mention they strike me as the stereotypical band of dumb thugs.
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xtheoutcastedx

xtheoutcastedx

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2019 10:45 pm

@gavin gold I understand some of what you are saying and agree on a few of your points.

Referring to Mr. House, I did not mean he was easy to kill due to lack of security. The man had the Lucky 38 sealed since the bombs fell, that is pretty secure in my opinion. I meant it more so as that he was easy to kill as in fragile. A speck of dust could harm him with an ailment.

If you look at his decaying state in his tube, the years were not kind. It is my speculation, due to not having concrete evidence of to confirm or deny, that he is not going to be sustainable in that tube forever. There is an expiration date that we don't know. Who knows, maybe the Courier could be the new test tube baby. Once again that is just speculation, closer to fan fiction toward the end of my explanation.

Could he literally lead from the tower? Without a doubt. I was referring to a more metaphorical sense. I would not consider anyone a leader who hid in their castle or wherever and sent others, in this case Securitrons, to do their bidding. That was more of a personal opinion that I should have clarified.

I completely forgot about The White Glove Society's deal so you are completely correct on that one.

The Kings do in fact protect Freeside, in many cases for a price. They escort those who can pay around Freeside. At best, they attempt to maintain order since Freeside is claimed as Kings territory. They control the water supply as well so they are pretty influential in that area. In reality, the Kings are just a raider group who liked Elvis. Nevertheless, they are still a faction all the same that has a pretty big stake in an area right next to Vegas shithole or not. It is a complete and utter disaster there though, that's not debate either.

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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Faction: House
Level: 50

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 03, 2019 2:36 am

@"xtheoutcastedx" That may be true, he does seem fragile, but only if you take him out of his medical chamber and I see no reason to do so. Also, I agree he's not in top physical condition but I mean the guy's what, 250 years old? I'd say that's about what you'd expect for someone that age. I think if that technology is so good it has managed to keep him alive for so long there's no reason to think it won't keep functioning. He's planning for the long term after all; I don't think he'd be doing so if the technology was flimsy. Plus, he could always transfer his brain to a robotic body, like the guys in Big Mt. Though that's a bit more speculative, but I'm just saying, the lore elements are there.

Dude, I think people confuse what the role of the Kings is. It always seemed to me like they think of freeside as their own personal joint, rather than see themselves as protectors of anything. But maybe that's just me.

I don't agree with the whole leading from the tower thing. I'd prefer a ruler with a soft touch minding his business rather than sticking his nose in people's affairs all the time.
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xtheoutcastedx

xtheoutcastedx

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 03, 2019 5:16 pm

@gavin gold I didn't even think of the Big MT! Solid point, I was thinking more of a physical body and that was my error. That brings up the conversation of pulse grenades and potential EMP threats then Wink

I can see why you'd think that about the Kings. I think it would more so depend on which King you're talking to. The King himself appears to be very respectful and takes pride in Freeside. Maybe his "personal joint" like you said, but even if you view it as your crappy little home it is still your home. Other members speak a little more disrespectfully as if all who are not Kings are beneath them. Cult like atmosphere on that end.

I believe we just have differences of opinion leading. I agree with not sticking their nose in other's business however. A powerful leader who also has some humanity is what I personally would look for. To quote Roosevelt: speak softly and carry a big stick.

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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Name: Gavin Gold
Faction: House
Level: 50

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 03, 2019 10:56 pm

@"xtheoutcastedx" But EMPs and pulse grenades exist even without Big Mt, don't they? I don't remember those being only exclusively developed there. Still, a nuke is also a massive EMP (only it's so destructive it doesn't really matter because it destroys anything that uses electricity anyway) so if a nuclear bomb couldn't stop him, a puny pulse grenade don't stand a chance.

And besides, that sort of goes back to the fact that he doesn't let anyone inside the Lucky 38, so unless you want to kill him, no one will, despite any physical weakness he may have.
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xtheoutcastedx

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 03, 2019 11:53 pm

My “emp” statement was more of a joke, I should’ve been more clear about that. I am very curious about his technology to divert destruction away from Vegas because that would more so incline me to siding with him, say for example Ulysses decided to nuke Vegas instead of the NCR or Legion, House would be the obvious leader to go with then.

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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Faction: House
Level: 50

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 04, 2019 1:25 am

@"xtheoutcastedx" I'm curious. Why would Ulysses deciding to nuke Vegas change your decision? Or am I not understanding that correctly?
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Visible Earth

Visible Earth

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 04, 2019 2:29 am

Wow, a lot of people have brought up some great points and I don't really want to interrupt. Just thought I'd make a small contribution. I agree with the OP that there are a lot of benefits to Mr House taking over the Mojave. Personally I've always been more on the Independent side, but someone like House obviously has a lot of intellect and knowledge to bring to the table. I'm not sure that the Courier could become immortal without him, as he somewhat casually promises.

My issue with House is (as is the problem with all autocrats) House himself. My question to people here is, how comfortable would you be about being ruled by Howard Hughes?

House was directly inspired by Hughes in many ways. His appearance, his altered engineering backstory, the photo of him with Liberty Prime, and his obsession with Vegas. Hughes was a genius, a maverick generally seen by many to be the quintessential American individual. He made movies, dated Hollywood starlets, and was a genuinely innovative engineer who had a way of just achieving the things he wanted to achieve no matter what. But there was a catch to his genius, and that was his germaphobia.

By the end of Hughes's life, he had locked himself away inside a Vegas hotel, almost never coming out, and supposedly growing horrifically frail with a long white beard, so terrified of germs or bacteria getting him. In one of his few interactions with the outside world, he spoke to the media, on television, through a phone hooked up to a microphone. All of this will sound familiar to us of course, with House's anti-bacterial pod being a wonderful nod to Hughes's paranoia.

The detail I want to bring up specifically is another nod to Hughes's mania. And that's the collectable snow-globes. The snow-globes are a visual reference to the snow-globe from Citizen Kane, which was a film parodying the life of William Randolph Hearst, but was originally intended to be a parody of Hughes. Amazingly enough, it wasn't too difficult shifting the script from one crazy reclusive billionaire to another.

The globe represents the character's controlling nature, whether that be Kane's or House's. House says of the globes "There's something about a little diorama set inside a glass dome that I find pleasing." They're pretty to look at, and nothing about them changes without the owner's desire. Developer Josh Sawyer put it best:

"(House) has no interest in physically interacting with the world but wants absolute control over New Vegas. Snow globes are perfect static worlds in miniature that can't be directly touched but can be (literally) turned up side down any time the owner desires."

And that's the danger of having Mr House as the autocrat of Vegas. He presents the image of being powerful and in control, but I would argue, between the allusions to Hughes and the Citizen Kane snow-globes, the subtext reads House as being dangerously obsessive and paranoid. Hughes once showed great promise, but the moment he lost control of the situation he snapped. House was perfectly at ease controlling his computers and robots, but he is incapable of working with humans in a way where he does not hold all the cards. A robot would be safer because at least then that robot wouldn't carry his prejudices.

Anything that does not fit House's vision of the city is eliminated, usually by force. It's interesting that the OP cited the Legion and NCR as both living in the past, because House's obsession with the past is even more sinister. He wants to freeze Vegas, perfectly shaping it back into the consumerist tourist-trap that it is today. Whatever freedom or gain there is to be achieved in the city is under his ever watchful eye. It'd be like being an ant in an ant colony display.

Living under House wouldn't be the worst thing, but the world he wishes to create is far from the utopian vision he sells it as. Vegas is a gated community, and that's one thing that House seems to have zero intention of changing. If anything all he'd want to do is widen the wall and force even more people out of the city into the desert.

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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Character sheet
Name: Gavin Gold
Faction: House
Level: 50

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 04, 2019 4:35 am

@"Visible Earth" Dude, those are pretty great points that I actually hadn't thought about, but you know what? The answer is kinda simple: You can just shoot him.

I find the question of whether House is sane/honest/trustworthy/etc. to be a rather strange one. If you help him take over the Mojave, and then 10 years down the road he turns out to be a maniac, what's preventing you from simply doing the exact same thing you do in the Yes Man questline then?

House is a bit of a gamble. It's part of what makes him different than the NCR/Legion with whom you know what you'll get. But if he is everything he promises to be, that's a chance you should take. If he's not, OK, you can take over, knowing that you took a chance on a better future.

Now, admittedly he's kind of a nutjob, but I don't mind people having little quirks. We all do. And it didn't stop him from becoming a billionaire.

Also, I should mention, looking to the past is not the problem, is what you're trying to accomplish by looking to the past. House wants to rebuild Vegas with a purpose. Vegas is a means to an end. NCR and the Legion offer no future because they don't have any plans other than to pick up the pieces.

And I would say your characterization of Vegas today is a little harsh. Nothing wrong with offering tourists some fun in exchange for cash, is there? Wink

As for Howard Hughes? Sure. With the kinds of politicians we've gotten throughout history? I can't imagine Hughes being half as bad as the vast majority of them.

You know, now that you mention it, there's a game where that kind of happens... It was called Urban Empire. But don't look it up. It's one of the worst atrocities I've ever played.
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Visible Earth

Visible Earth

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 04, 2019 12:16 pm

@gavin gold

I'm responding to the point that House is the only real option. If he needs to be taken out ten years down the line, then he's not a valid option. This is the essential problem with autocrats. All we can judge is their character, and if there's anything about that character that is problematic, then they're probably not fit to rule. At least the NCR has a plan for what happens after each ruler leaves office, even if their democracy is badly implemented.

I would argue that Caesar is as much a man with a plan as House. The plan is a lot more fraught and flawed, but his vision for a society lasting a thousand years is there. This is just my reading of the two characters, but I would argue that, while House talks big, his focus will be entirely on his city state. Caesar actually does have plans for the entire wasteland. Those plans will probably end in disaster considering how massive his empire would become by the end of his California campaign, but at least his vision of the future isn't as insular as House's. To put it from a (probably male) wastelander's perspective, Caesar knows the wasteland. He's experienced it. His plan is based on that understanding. House is a city-slickin' yuppie who's not only never seen a deathclaw, but probably never will. House has a plan he formulated two-hundred years ago and now he's trying to force it onto the world as though nothing changed in all that time.

The decision falls to the player of course. The reason why these discussions are always so fun is because we all bring different perspectives and opinions of the characters, and everyone has cool reasonings for why they side with them. As someone who's sided with all of them over the years, it's been fun thinking their plans through and weighing the pros and cons of each.

The only way Vegas functions is for a select number of its clientele to either lose or spend money. Not saying that that's a bad thing, but that is how it operates. Not everyone's gonna have a good time in Vegas, sadly.

Hughes wasn't an autocrat though, which is what I'm asking we imagine him being. At least with elected politicians they're (usually) kicked out before they go too nuts. An autocratic Hughes? I can imagine the guy wiping entire parts of the world off the map if he thought there were too many diseases there. Discounting the diseases part, House basically does wipe various populations from the map. The BoS can't survive his playthroughs, and if you're playing a more genocidal courier, neither do the Boomers.

I will endeavour to avoid Urban Empire then.

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it's midnight, and I'm wearing a 50 year old Vault 13 jumpsuit. Let's hit it."

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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Name: Gavin Gold
Faction: House
Level: 50

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 04, 2019 10:53 pm

@"Visible Earth" OK, let me explain a little bit more what I mean

During the events of NV you have 4 options:
1. You can side with the NCR
2. You can side with Caesar
3. You can side with House
4. You can go independent and take power for yourself.

I have argued that both the NCR and the Legion are dead ends. And that they don't give you any reward for winning the war for them. That's makes them bad choices.

Going independent seems to me like the wrong choice because it's a choice you could take anytime you want. By deciding to go independent right away and kill House before even giving him a chance to create his dreams, you are immediately locking yourself out of a better future, not only for humanity but for yourself as well (I don't know about you, but I'd like to live forever).

It's not that it is an inherently bad choice, is that it is the wrong choice at that specific moment.

House is a bit of a gamble like I said, but he's the best hope for humanity and for yourself, that makes him the right choice at that moment, even if in the future things don't work out the way you imagined they would.

BTW, I think he would be capable of achieving everything he wants to do, I'm simply saying that in the odd chance that he doesn't, you can always take over in the future. That's not a now or never decision, so it's worth it to take a chance on him.

Also, I'd like to address a couple of things:

First, don't confuse being a bit obsessive compulsive with being a maniac. Being a bit too afraid of germs doesn't make you genocidal. One thing doesn't follow the other.

Second, I keep going back to this. I understand people like the BOS. They're cool, and people are fond of them because they're one of the most classic elements of the Fallout universe. I want to like them as well. But everything House says about the BOS is true. They're dangerous quasi religious fanatics who believe they're the only ones who should be able to use and control technology. They harass travelers for so much as a laser rifle. And they don't want to be part of any society. There's no way those people are going to accept House running the Mojave with robots. There's no way they won't start a war once he tries to create all his high tech dreams. House is perfectly happy to leave the Boomers alone, He's happy even to leave the Khans alone. The BOS is a threat to the future of humanity.

People keep saying they like the RPG aspects of the game and having to make choices and impact the world, but when they actually have to take a choice all the sudden the don't want that anymore. If you believe that House is the best choice to create a future for humanity, you also have to understand the BOS is incompatible with that future.
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Xrad

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 04, 2019 11:47 pm

well I agree with Gavin gold BOs is batshit crazy and needs to be wiped out...but before doing so telling veronica to leave them because she's the only straight thinking member in that cult

and to the people saying that it's a radical move to kill them well basically all of the other factions tell or give the courier the choice or order to kill them plus this is life...and a post-apocalyptic wasteland so modern morality /good think don't apply.
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Xrad

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 04, 2019 11:47 pm

well I agree with Gavin gold BOS is batshit crazy and needs to be wiped out...but before doing so telling veronica to leave them because she's the only straight thinking member in that cult

and to the people saying that it's a radical move to kill them well basically all of the other factions tell or give the courier the choice or order to kill them plus this is life...and a post-apocalyptic wasteland so modern morality /good think don't apply.
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Visible Earth

Visible Earth

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 05, 2019 2:08 am

@gavin gold wrote:
@Visible Earth

I suppose the issue with killing House after the battle of Hoover Dam is that House is in a far more powerful position at that point than he is before it. We see this somewhat with the securitrons, and how much more dangerous they become after they're upgraded. This typically incentivises players to assassinate him before upgrading them, especially if they're wanting to achieve a Yes Man ending. It's all hypothetical after the game of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if House tightens his security within the Lucky 38. The pre-credits say the Courier is afforded every luxury the Lucky 38 has to offer, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can access the penthouse anymore.

I couldn't care less about the Brotherhood. The only difference between them and the Enclave is that the Enclave managed to piss off more people first. I'm just pointing out that wiping them out is genocide. Or a massacre. Depends on how many people we assume are in that bunker.

Howard Hughes inadvertently caused the deaths of multiple people in his life, including in one scenario where he shipped large amounts of radioactive soil to Hollywood because he wanted a film set to match scenes filmed near a nuclear test site. Within a few years, a large number of people who worked on the film died of cancer. Check out stuff on The Conqueror (1956) if you want to know more about it. Giving him unlimited power, I can imagine his obsessive-compulsiveness and excessive perfectionism resulting in more deaths like this. He was very happy to put people's lives at risk if it meant achieving his grand schemes. It's why he's such a perfect model for House.

Simply put, every faction has their pros and cons. The rewards for working for House are great, it's just a question of how trustworthy he is. It's also a question of ideology, and whether or not players feel comfortable working for a dictator. Using your ISIS analogy, this would figure House as Assad. Most people would say that collaborating with Assad to destroy ISIS is a necessary evil, but others wouldn't cross that line. It's all a matter of individual ethics. But that's a whole other discussion  Why House is the only real option - Page 2 1f606

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"It's 106 miles to Arroyo, we've got a full fusion cell, half a pack of RadAway,
it's midnight, and I'm wearing a 50 year old Vault 13 jumpsuit. Let's hit it."

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 05, 2019 2:13 am

Nah, kill em all and let the Rad scorpions sort them out!

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xtheoutcastedx

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 05, 2019 2:32 am

@gavin gold the reason it would change my decision is specifically for the survival of Vegas. *To my knowledge*, Ulysses is the only character who posses an armament strong enough to wipe Vegas off the map so to speak. Any army at your doorstep is one thing because that's siege warfare, someone dropping a tactical nuke on you or dispersing it in the atmosphere so radiation can take its course is an entirely different type of combat scenario. Vegas could be held in siege warfare arguably by most of the factions (not talking about starving the defender out, cutting off of supply lines, or etc specifically combat). But who could defend against a nuclear blast? House would be the only option, maybe Yes Man but that's a maybe based off of speculation. House has proven to be able to do it in the past while the NCR has not and to talk about the Legion being able to do that is laughable at best.

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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Name: Gavin Gold
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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 05, 2019 9:21 am

@"xtheoutcastedx" Oh OK. I admittedly had to spin it around in my head a bit, lol. But I see what you mean.

@"Visible Earth" So,

1. That may be true. Although if he doesn't distrust the courier when he's a stranger I don't see why he would distrust him once he helped him take over. But that's very speculative, maybe let's not argue that.
2. That's true it would be a massacre. But it is a post apocalyptic world; there's going to be some tough choices to make. Also, you'll have to wipe them out sooner or later, in battle or with sabotage, and that's not because of House's decision, that's because of the BOS' own beliefs.
3. OK, I didn't know that. That's actually pretty interesting. Still, those deaths, regrettable as they are, seem to be purely accidental. I doubt it was his intention to kill those people. Not that it's good, obviously, but there's still a long way from carelessness to genocide.
4. Yeah, of course every faction has pros and cons. Actually let me walk that back. I don't think the legion has any pros. But everyone else has pros and cons. I'm simply saying that in the end of the day, House's pros overwhelmingly make him the best option. I will push back on the comparison with Assad, because it's something I mentioned earlier. "Dictatorship" is not the proper word to describe what House is planning. His vision of Vegas is more a libertarian corporatocracy, not a dictatorship.
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xtheoutcastedx

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PostSubject: Re: Why House is the only real option   Why House is the only real option - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 05, 2019 7:51 pm

@gavin gold yeah sorry! All my thoughts were crazy and I was trying to figure out how to word them properly.

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