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 The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.

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RangerGUN

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PostSubject: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptyThu Jun 27, 2019 1:08 pm

If you have a basic understanding of fascism then it's quite obvious how the Legion is that. But there is something I found interesting how the Legion is written. Throughout the entire game, many characters, Boone, Ulysses, Joshua Graham, and Marcus to name a few, give an insight into how if Caesar died the Legion would soon crumble because they view him as a god, not some mere mortal man. They don't follow his ideas, they follow the man himself. Besides from that interesting tidbit of how the Legion functions, I don't think it's ever mentioned that they are fascists, I don't even think the word itself is mentioned in the entire game.

It's best to establish what fascism is; it is a right-wing, nationalistic political movement or regime. Fascists view democracy as a detriment to the system and always prepare for war. Nationalism plays a key role in the regime to mobilize the public to support them and die for the state, to create one national identity. Not everyone born in the state is seen as part of the one national identity, immigrants (who can be seen as invaders in the eyes of nationalists) and racial groups. I don't I need to tell you the cost of a thousand-year of antisemitism lead to when the Nazis came to power, especially other groups they murdered.

Going back to the Legion. Nationalism is part of the philosophy of Caesar's Legion. From playing the game, it appears they don't uphold any type of racial superiority, plenty of people of colour are in high positions of power, but they are nationalists still. The social construct of race probably doesn't exist under the Legion, one white and one black person are Legionaries, they're not seen as different. Anyone who isn't part of the Legion are seen as profligates. An 'us vs them' mentality. It does appear to be paradoxical as their ultimate goal is to unite humanity under one flag while viewing outsiders as sub-human. Assimilation is one way to get around this, remember they pillage and destroy tribes, killing the weak and enslaving women. By feeding men these myths and their goals, they see themselves as though ascended, no longer living in squalor and lacking morality, they're part of a regime to save humanity. The only few who managed to escape this rabbit hole were Joshua Graham and Ulysses.

Ever since reading up about what fascism is, it does put it into perspective how dangerous and depraved the Legion really are. The game does a perfect job showing they are a threat not to be underestimated. Genocide, slavery, barbaric methods to put the fear in NCR troopers are aspects that define the Legion, you can't justify their actions. Fascism is a layer beneath their core values, it shapes them and pushes them and is hidden if you're not looking in the right places. While from reading up about fascism, I never quite knew how their whole system functioned, how much more evil it was. It's the one thing I wish they spoke about in the game.

While this was fun to write about, just to let you know I am not an expert on this field. I haven't gone to any college to learn about this, this is merely my time learning and reading about how depraved fascism is on the internet and I felt like sharing it with you guys. Hope you guys enjoyed reading this and let's discuss this, let's hear your take on this.


Last edited by RangerGUN on Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tekmon_Xonic

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptyThu Jun 27, 2019 2:11 pm

@ RangerGUN

You are absolutely right about the Legion being fascists. I'll admit, when I first encountered the Legion in Nelson. They where the first enemy to truly intimidate me in a video game. When I saw the mad powder ganger, the crucified people on the crosses, the town in a smoldering ruin, I thought it was bad enough. But when Vulpes Inculta came out of the town hall explained to me what they did. I knew I was dealing with a force that didn't screw around.

Despite Caesar teaching his men that he is a god and not a man. In reality, he's actually a total pansy coward. He has to let his minions do all the dirty work for him. Instead of taking to the field directly. There is a point where he threatens to have his legionaries hack you apart for his "entertainment," for disobeying an order he gives you. Which further proves is cowardice. I also think it's pretty cowardly of the legion to attempt to strip you of your weapons whenever you try to enter the camp, or when you go inside the fort to install the platinum chip so that you can upgrade Mr. House's securitrons.

But that's the whole point of it though. Caesar wants you to think that he is the answer, and that you must obey him or die, and his methods of punishment are nothing short of insane. Having 10% of a unit being killed by the other 90%. Setting Joshua Graham on fire and tossing him into the Colorado. He even has it to where his troops are to kill themselves to avoid being captured. He instills fear in his troops so that if they even remotely think about disobeying him, let alone their superiors, they'll think about the horrible consequences for disobeying them. It's a really effective method of keeping his troops in line. Smile
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Destroyiin

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PostSubject: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptyThu Jun 27, 2019 5:20 pm

@RangerGUN the Legion is fascist, no questions asked. But in a way, it does provide a certain sense... of stability. Of safety. There are no raiders on their lands. There is always water on their lands. There is always food on their lands. Most of their soldiers are completely disciplined and will always be true to Caesar. If they start accepting someone who was not born into the legion, there is a chance that person was not fully indoctrinated. Legion troops are promoted based on their strength, they live because of their endurance and they die in battle because of their courage. Legion Army, from the point of discipline, is one of the best armies in the wasteland. They rejected the goods of the old world that destroyed it in first place. And Legion is a perfect faction for SURVIVAL in fallout world, aside from one major flaw.

Like most fascist states, the Legion is in a big way build on loyalty not only to the state, but to the state leader. Be it Mussolini, Fuhrer or Caesar, all of them were detrimental in building their fascist states. Without them inspiring their troops and giving speeches to them , without their charisma, their nations wouldn’t ever be some powerful. This results in Legion completely dying out when Caesar dies. When he will die, Legion, as time goes, will divide. It will become nothing but hundreds of bloodthirsty tribes ready to kill each other. In game, you see the worst part of the legion, your seeing them as slavers and bloodthirsty animals, which is true, but you’re still seeing them in war, while you do see NCR settlements. You walk the land that the NCR occupies. And if you can’t handle Legion at its worst, you don’t deserve the Legion at its best. But even disregarding that flaw, the deciding question is: Do you prefer security over freedom? The legion will bring order, but will it return the America that fell? No, not at all.

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IRORIEH

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptyThu Jun 27, 2019 8:41 pm

They are fascists. They live under a dictatorship, in the style of Imperialist rome, or more specifically, Julius Caesar's Rome. To understand this, and specifically what Caesar is trying establish, you have to understand Julius Caesar, and his goals and ambitions. Namely, the dissolving the Roman Republic, and the birth of Empire.

In ancient Rome the position of Dictator was an emergency power, to be used in times when the senate moved too slow to be efficient, after which the power would be relinquished (which it always was). Caesar was part of a triumvirate of political figures within Roman Politics, but when his unsanctioned military campaigns in Gaul and Britain were considered illegal, the triumvirate (which was already in a pretty fractured state) all but broke, and he was ordered to return to Rome without his armies as a regular citizen and face trial for his actions. Sure he was a great general, and his conquests were successful, but the senate disagreed, they had never allowed him to do such. But who were they to tell him what to do? They were weak senators who represented the worst of Rome, corrupt and without purpose, and he wasn't going to let them punish him for his service to Rome. So Julius Caesar did return to Rome, only he did so with his legion. Thus began the Roman Civil War, the end of the Roman Republic, and the birth of the Roman Empire proper. His dictatorship for life saw great reforms, and brought Rome into what is arguably the height of its power and influence.

If some of this sounds familiar, it's because it is. Edward Sallow was moved toward his actions by the corruption of the NCR. Its senate is filled with rich, corrupt senators who do little to better their nation. Nepotism infests the army, with great leaders like Colonel Hsu (who many feel should be general) and Chief Hanlon being cast aside in favour of men and women like General Oliver or Colonel Moore, both of whom are supporters of (and in Oliver's case) personal friends with the President. The caravan companies, brahmin barons and mob families like the Crimson Caravans and Van Graffs have ridiculous power and act with virtual impunity, even undermining NCR military operations. Sallow, an avid historian saw these parallels in ancient Rome. The NCR prospered under a single strong ruler, Tandi. Tandi was a woman who understood the need for underhanded actions, for conquest and expansion as we see in Fallout 2. She was almost single handedly responsible for how far the Republic has grown by 2242, but ever since her death the Republic has struggled under the weight of its political system, and an inability to find a leader who can focus the might of the Republic.
So Sallow became Caesar and much like his namesake, campaigned in the east among the tribes of the savage lands, taming them and forging an army he can use to return to his homeland, the great republic, and reform it into a new power. Caesar says as much in game when he calls the Colorado his Rubicon, and Vegas his Rome.

So yes, the Legion is fascist, but it's not fascist in the sense we understand fascism today. It's not nationalistic, or race based, its of a political supremacy. There are some racial undertones creeping in (the idea of profligates and slave classes) but I think the issue here is a lack of exposure to Legion society. In a certain sense, Caesar is right. It does take a strong figure to unite a group and reclaim the wasteland. The NCR thrived under Tandi, just as the Brotherhood of Steel has seen its greatest successes under great figures, still venerating Roger Maxson and thriving on the East Coast under his descendant, Arthur. There is an undertone of fascism in all these cases, however like I said, it's not fascism as we call out fascism today. Most of our perception of fascists is the Nazi's, and it's not entirely the same. Nazi ideology was on the basis of reclaiming and "purifying a land", Caesar operates on a basis of taming a new world. There is no chosen people. All people are equally abhorrent, until the son of Mars raises them up and makes them great. There are no free people, within or outside the Legion, all exist as extensions of his will. In the deep lore, the ideology of the Legion is that Mars purged the world with fire and sent his son to make it anew. He is a living god emperor, and that is his right to dictatorship. He is superior, and he makes men superior.

This is a mouthful, but I feel it's important to understand these distinctions and also to highlight the lore and real world history behind this faction, because it is really amazing how much Obsidian put in to building this group, and a true shame we'll likely never get an opportunity to see more of the Legion post Vegas.

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WeissYohji

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptyFri Jun 28, 2019 1:24 am

The Legion is fucking totalitarian, plain and simple. They enslave people and treat women as brood mares for the state. They shun Pre-War technology, further shooting themselves in the foot. And they're also hypocrites when it comes to Luddism considering that Caesar keeps an Auto-Doc in his own tent! They only see the Legion and "Dissolutes", and they view anyone from the NCR as a "Profligate" when Edward Sallow d.b.a. Caesar is originally from there himself.

Not only is the Legion fascist, but they also lose the wider war with the NCR. With or without the Courier, the NCR still crushes the Legion. They don't deny half their fighting force and workforce. They don't enslave people. They don't shun guns, chems, vertibirds, and other Pre-War tech. And they just plain aren't fascists. The Legion, on the other hand, is a bunch of glorified raiders who play dress-up. Their "rape, pillage, enslave, burn" model is unsustainable and just plain cruel. And the further west the Legion goes, the fewer independent tribes they can assimilate. The Legion is also overstretched just like the IRL Western Roman Empire. Remember, the Legion doesn't represent IRL Rome at its height, but at its COLLAPSE. The western half of the empire fell because it was too big for its britches, relied on mercenaries who were more loyal to their original tribes than to Rome, and rife with infighting and corruption. Caesar's Legion has already overexpanded by conquering most of the Four Corners states. The Legion also doesn't have the longevity of the real Roman Empire. IRL Rome's fancy-pants Empire lasted from 27 BCE to 1453. The Legion has only been around for a few decades as of FNV's story. Many of the soldiers and slaves still remember the tribes and vaults they came from. How long before they revolt and recover their old identities? And the big 'un? Caesar is eventually going to DIE. Whether it's from his brain cancer, old age, assassination, military coup, accident, whatever, Caesar isn't going to be around forever. Lanius could hold most of the Legion together through fear but he's too incompetent of a politician to run a country. Revolts would start and that'd be the death of the Legion. The NCR wins regardless of the outcome of Hoover Dam.
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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptyFri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 am

The Legion is of course fascist and totalitarian. This is already well explained in other replies.
There is one thing that scares me about the Legion : many players liked it, while the game explicitly tells you they are rapist, slavers, murdurers, bloodthirsty animals : a kind of veeeryyy large raider machist gang.
So did Obsidian failed to warn the player against fascism, or does a large bunch of loud fascist lovers plays to Fallout while it constantly warn you of nationalism and fascism dangers ?

EDIT : sorry for my english, it's late and it's not my mother tongue ^^

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Destroyiin

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PostSubject: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptyFri Jun 28, 2019 2:24 am

The Legion is of course fascist and totalitarian. This is already well explained in other replies.
There is one thing that scares me about the Legion : many players liked it, while the game explicitly tells you they are rapist, slavers, murdurers, bloodthirsty animals : a kind of veeeryyy large raider machist gang.
So did Obsidian failed to warn the player against fascism, or does a large bunch of loud fascist lovers plays to Fallout while it constantly warn you of nationalism and fascism dangers ?

EDIT : sorry for my english, it's late and it's not my mother tongue ^^

Well, the Legion wasn’t really fleshed out. I think there would be some good factors about it as well if obsidian got more time. And about players loving legion... well... they’re a faction in game. And they’re pretty badass. I like enclave for example. This doesn’t make me a fascist. There is a big distinction between irl and game.

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IRORIEH

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptyFri Jun 28, 2019 1:11 pm

@Destroyiin wrote:
The Legion is of course fascist and totalitarian. This is already well explained in other replies.
There is one thing that scares me about the Legion : many players liked it, while the game explicitly tells you they are rapist, slavers, murdurers, bloodthirsty animals : a kind of veeeryyy large raider machist gang.
So did Obsidian failed to warn the player against fascism, or does a large bunch of loud fascist lovers plays to Fallout while it constantly warn you of nationalism and fascism dangers ?

EDIT : sorry for my english, it's late and it's not my mother tongue ^^

Well, the Legion wasn’t really fleshed out. I think there would be some good factors about it as well if obsidian got more time. And about players loving legion... well... they’re a faction in game. And they’re pretty badass. I like enclave for example. This doesn’t make me a fascist. There is a big distinction between irl and game.


I tend to agree with what Josh Sawyer says on the matter

Quote :
So, the Legion is the way it is because Caesar is a warlord who maintains control through his cult of personality and the fear of his disapproval (with severe consequences).  The historical Caesar was known for being unusually merciful, but he was playing to societies that were much more accepting of mercy.  Caesar taught the Legion mercilessness, so that is what they expect, what they consider strong.

There’s nothing really morally grey about Liberia’s Charles Taylor, but he’s a real guy who did astoundingly terrible things for the sake of maintaining power.  In the context of F:NV, I don’t think Caesar and the Legion need to be thought of as “grey” like the player’s other options.  I think they can be what they are, as they are, because the lie of their fiction is intended to provoke thoughts about truth, i.e. the nature of humans who rise to power in such circumstances.  When we say “war never changes”, we’re talking about things like this.

Honestly, there is no moral grey to factions like the Enclave or the Legion. They are exactly what we see. Even if both achieve their goals, they are building societies driven by supremacy and total annihilation. That was neither ancient Rome, or the Pre-War US. They're such corrupted world views that inevitably these groups will always be driven to conflict.

Doesn't mean certain characters in these factions can't be morally grey. The remnants and Ulysses are good people. But yeah, no. There's no moral grey to attempting mass genocide based on genetic supremacy (esp. when your some of the people responsible for the war in the first place) nor is there any in mass slavery, totalitarian conquest and eugenics.

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Sirdanest

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySat Jun 29, 2019 9:55 am

We _needed_ to see what a legion town was like; how the civilians lived, how the economy worked, what the shops were like, etc. Needed to see it. Without that, they're practically just a raider gang seeking to burn the "known world." They'll destroy the civilization in Vegas,burn everything the player has seen so far. It was vital, I think, to be shown that not everyone was just a raider shouting about profligates, that they had a viable economy with people able to go about living a relatively normal life. I only pick the legion, as it stands, if I'm playing a psycho who wants to see the world burn (or to just see the legion side of the quests.)
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Tekmon_Xonic

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySat Jun 29, 2019 10:05 am

@ Sirdanest

Now THAT is something I would have liked to have seen too, Sirdanest. It's a shame that Obsidian didn't make any DLC regarding that whole idea, but I will admit, how could I complain when the DLC for New Vegas is so dang AWE-SOME! Thumbs Up
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Sirdanest

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySat Jun 29, 2019 10:11 am

It should have indeed been a DLC, I expected it to be, just because it seemed essential to the story if we wanted the legion to appeal to anyone other than "I like to see the world burn" characters.
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thegreataimbottio

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 4:55 am

@Sirdanest I don't know if this was mentioned in the thread earlier but Dale Barton, an NPC in the Fort says that he prefers to trade in Legion territory because it's safer and there are less taxes when compared to NCR territory. Cass also says similar things through some dialogue. I always thought that if New Vegas had more than a year to be developed we would have seen the Legion be more fleshed out. It's a shame but doesn't change the fact that
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Emperor Slyther

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 6:04 am

At the end of the day, I don't really see the dictatorship so different between the NCR and the Legion. The NCR proclaims itself as a 'force of good', which to me is complete fucking bullshit, won't fall for such patriot garbage and their propaganda. Let's compare the two powers, shall we?

So yes, the Legion is outright a total Roman-themed dictatorship of a faction. How it's Caesar of the living time of FNV's present, wants to reflect, mirror and reshape New Vegas and all of his tribe's reach under the visionary of the Roman empire, or something close to it. Slavery is a guarantee, yes. The slave trade is common, but on terms of raping women, or so the legionary officers love to do outside the field of duty, but then again in Nipton, the Legion has proven otherwise that such activity was taking place before they started torturing people, and nailing them to crucifixions. Some members were identified as Powder Gangers, and former. Chances are, it could've also been an NCR settlement before the Legion was involved, and if some of the NCR community was involved in similar activities within Nipton, what makes the NCR so different from the Legion? Their battle tactics may be different, but their ambitions to power are inevitably in the same formula, of different appearances. Does power give a damn about you or innocents? Nope. Power is a temptation for any body of empire, including Caesar's, and even that of a bureaucratic and autocratic government like the NCR's.

Calling the Legion fascists? If you're referring them to nazis, I wouldn't exactly label them as such. Sure, they're assholes alright, but as others said, they care little about race or ethnics. In a way, some can relate this to marxism and socialism, but again I do not believe marxist is the term I would describe the Legion as. I have seen this practice in the Elder Scrolls game lore that the Imperial Legion of Cyrodiil, proclaims itself to be good, and has no racial nor national bias towards anyone, but yet in Skyrim they simply chop people's heads off for 'breaking the border laws'. Is communism the word to define both Legions of ES and Fallout? I don't know honestly, as communism is it's own thing, same with capitalism. So I honestly do not see a similarity between the Legion, the USSR or even that of Nazi Germany. But what I do believe is that the Legion of FNV are definitely authoritarian in it's own initiative.

Even if the Legion is evil, but I do not entirely just see them as an enemy to two parties whom are not on the same side obviously, but rather instead as a lesson to the NCR as well. If you come to think about it, the Legionnaire troops are alot more disciplined and alot more restrained by the military order of the Legion itself, while the NCR lacks responsibility for the wrongs done by it's soldiers. Just because the Legion is evil, doesn't exactly make the NCR look like saints in this either.

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 7:04 am

@ Emperor Slyther

I agree with you with the NCR having similar issues to the Legion. I mean look at what the NCR did with the Great Kahns, and the whole massacre they had. It's especially tragic when you hear what happens from Boone's side of the story. How command told him to keep shooting until they ran out of ammo, when there were elderly, sick, wounded, and children trying to evacuate the camp. Only to be gunned down by NCR soldiers. Also, there is a lot of corruption within the NCR as well. Such as Crimson Caravan and the Van Graffs literally trying to destroy their competition with Cassady Caravans, and the NCR taking a blind eye to it. Along with Chief Hanlon, who's sending fake intel reports, and nothing is done about it. So in many ways, they aren't so different. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 7:34 am

@Tekmon_Xonic wrote:
I mean look at what the NCR did with the Great Kahns, and the whole massacre they had. It's especially tragic when you hear what happens from Boone's side of the story. How command told him to keep shooting until they ran out of ammo, when there were elderly, sick, wounded, and children trying to evacuate the camp. Only to be gunned down by NCR soldiers. Also, there is a lot of corruption within the NCR as well. Such as Crimson Caravan and the Van Graffs literally trying to destroy their competition with Cassady Caravans, and the NCR taking a blind eye to it. Along with Chief Hanlon, who's sending fake intel reports, and nothing is done about it. So in many ways, they aren't so different. Smile

I heard this firsthand from Papa Khan, when I was doing quests for the NCR at one point. I just felt with even my own modded faction in the game, the NCR just wasn't respecting of their allies well enough. No sense of trying to mod and tweak relations to be 'Oh, we're buddy-buddies now!', instead I just let the NCR's actions speak for itself.

One side of Boone's story is that he did enjoy slaughtering the residents at Bitter Springs. So I'm guessing Boone has a mixed personality, the likes of the usual hypocrite, same with Chief Hanlon of whom was secretly working with the Legion, and some other NCR Lieutenant or Sergeant, I don't remember his name, but I'm referring to the guy over the monorail sabotage quest, so basically all these characters have good and bad depending on how you play the story, right?

That's just my personal input on it, that Boone is an asshole. I could give a fuck less about the Crimson Caravan or Cass in that matter, and the Van Graffs, I don't really have any major dirt or history with them, but seeing that Gloria does in fact hate the NCR, but she was put in a pretty complicated position. Didn't desire working with the Legion either, but it's funny how 'my' people can change things. (Mod-related) But yeah, being enemies with the NCR comes not without inviting the brave and bold white knighters of the Crimson Caravan and (potentially) the Gun Runners. So if either of these merchants shoot at me, I won't hesitate to level both of them until there is nothing left.

And don't even get me started on their little 'ranger patrols' coming to 'oh my goodness', warn the player to fix the reputation in three days or they attack outta nowhere, I'm like 'Bitch, shut the fuck up and just die already', kill her and her squad, get it over with because I have no intention of diplomacy with bureaucratic thugs who think we are beholden to every law they think they can impose on all of us. Simply put, if we're enemies of the state, the NCR just may very well shut the fuck up and get to fighting anyway.

That's another thing I essentially like about the Legion. Unlike NCR, they don't waste time with warnings or threats. The way I see it, only a strong person attacks without warning in any shape or form, because the Legion understands strength, and that's how they respond. No bullshit, just cut straight to the chase and battle to the death. I mean, the Legion is not perfectly without dialogue confrontations, but at least they're not quite as annoying as the NCR.

_________________
"We cannot solve problems using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them..." -Albert Einstein
"Quite the experience to live under fear, is it? That's what it means to be a slave..."
-Roy Batty (r.i.p. Rutger Hauer)

The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. KluBBcQ

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Tekmon_Xonic

Tekmon_Xonic

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Join date : 2015-11-14
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The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 9:34 am

@ Emperor Slyther

Boone definitely has a mixed personality, but I will admit, he's pretty crazy too. He eventually tells you that he caught up with the Legion slavers that had the help of Jennie May to capture his wife, and pretty much takes the shot, so that she wouldn't have to going through the suffering of being a slave.

Which brings me back to the Legion's muscle. They don't screw around, when they want something done, they do it, no hesitation, no reluctance, straight to the point. You've seen it in all of the places they've captured or pillaged, they are secure, and was does the NCR do? Nothing! If there was really trouble in Nipton as Ghost tells the player, surely they'd send some soldiers to investigate right? But they don't. They're too scared, but the Legion isn't.

In fact, I was pretty surprised the first time when I played an evil character, and the NCR sent their little squad after me. I was expecting something a little more... menacing. I will admit, it was cute when the female ranger thought she was being all tough and scary by telling me that maybe next time I should bring my cloak and sickle. But the Legion assassins, they just show up, say that the Caesar has marked you for death, and then start attacking you. Smile
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Xrad

Xrad

Posts : 260
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Age : 18
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Character sheet
Name: hunk
Faction: None Applicable
Level: 58

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 10:24 am

even though it's a fact that the legion seems the most evil faction in fnv we cant ignore that the game it self have learned us that life isnt black and white it's all gray
so my opinion is that the legion is the best choice for a wasteland and here is my argument.

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Garska

Garska

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Faction: New California Republic
Level: Who care ?

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 11:28 am

@Emperor Slyther
Facism isn't proper to nazis, and the Legion is also faaar from socialism and marxism. There is no slaves in socialism while the Legion economy is built on slavery.

@ everyone
By the way, every civilization with slaves isn't the Roman Republic/Empire. The Legion seems to enslave every women, using them as cattle, while there were powerful women in Rome. Caesar just loves latin language and cosplays as a roman, but the Legion never showed any sign of Roman institution, like the Senate (it existed even during the Empire). Rome is just a big "inspiration" for Caesar.

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Last edited by Garska on Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Emperor Slyther

Emperor Slyther

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Faction: Sniperdragon Kingdom Marine Corps (SKMC)
Level: Veteran (Assault/Sniper)

The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 2:11 pm

@Garska wrote:

Facism isn't proper to nazis, and the Legion is also faaar from socialism and marxism. There is no slaves in socialism while the Legion economy is built on slavery.

That is almost precisely what I was referring to. No connections to nazism, socialism, nor marxism as people seem to portray most historical dictatorships, comparing them with today's dictatorships. From what I know of, Karl Marx actually had more of a conservative background than portrayed as authoritarian far-left a.k.a. communist. No, I said all of the Legion's dictatorship is based on authority and power. And if that's not autocratic enough, I don't know what is.

The NCR on the other hand seems to have a bureaucratic body of governance, while it operates as a systematic government as one can expect. Caesar on the other hand, to be feared by all and his word as law, and as others put it, the position of dictator was mandatory and emergency position in empire Rome. Though today, the word dictator means a ruler come into the ranks of ultimate power, governance above all not through a public vote, but by through a position of force.


@WeissYohji wrote:

Not only is the Legion fascist, but they also lose the wider war with the NCR. With or without the Courier, the NCR still crushes the Legion. They don't deny half their fighting force and workforce. They don't enslave people. They don't shun guns, chems, vertibirds, and other Pre-War tech. And they just plain aren't fascists. The Legion, on the other hand, is a bunch of glorified raiders who play dress-up. Their "rape, pillage, enslave, burn" model is unsustainable and just plain cruel. And the further west the Legion goes, the fewer independent tribes they can assimilate. The Legion is also overstretched just like the IRL Western Roman Empire. Remember, the Legion doesn't represent IRL Rome at its height, but at its COLLAPSE. The western half of the empire fell because it was too big for its britches, relied on mercenaries who were more loyal to their original tribes than to Rome, and rife with infighting and corruption. Caesar's Legion has already overexpanded by conquering most of the Four Corners states. The Legion also doesn't have the longevity of the real Roman Empire. IRL Rome's fancy-pants Empire lasted from 27 BCE to 1453. The Legion has only been around for a few decades as of FNV's story. Many of the soldiers and slaves still remember the tribes and vaults they came from. How long before they revolt and recover their old identities? And the big 'un? Caesar is eventually going to DIE. Whether it's from his brain cancer, old age, assassination, military coup, accident, whatever, Caesar isn't going to be around forever. Lanius could hold most of the Legion together through fear but he's too incompetent of a politician to run a country. Revolts would start and that'd be the death of the Legion. The NCR wins regardless of the outcome of Hoover Dam.

If the NCR can win against the Legion alone, why is the NCR afraid to attack the Legion? Even if it seems the NCR has the most ground for the moment, soon as they invade Legion territory, the NCR soldiers fear they will be put at a disadvantage, which will benefit the legion. Quite typically, the NCR knows or thinks the Legion will obviously lead them into a trap, guerrilla warfare tactics, but again the NCR has laid out a few traps on their territory as well. Though, you are right that the portrayal of FNV's Legion is not based on the rise of the Roman empire, but rather instead the collapse of the regime itself. We all have our ways of how we look at the Legion, but as far goes, they don't look like the kind to boast propaganda but rather to let the actions of the Legion speak for itself, thus disinformation and propaganda is mostly a known tool in any body of fascism. NCR just loves to talk tough, while doing little to nothing out of fear. The Legion won't waste time, and won't hold anything back. There is a reason why they have a tactician for a Legate, but that can be in any army. So quite typically, the Legion are not fascist enough from my POV.

Sure in time, revolts can and WILL start, especially in a slave-run dictatorship like Caesar's Legion, and the tribe will fall flat on it's face at one point. And the same goes for the NCR, making promises that it will give food and water, but only to NCR civilians. I would suggest you talk to the kids protesting for free water at Camp Golf and see for yourself if the NCR is better than the Legion itself. Though in order for the NCR to win against the Legion, as long as it doesn't attack the Legion where it is the strongest and maintain it's defenses, the Legion will eventually cripple itself and I can see the NCR winning in that scenario. Like I said, the Legion is not just an enemy, but a lesson to the NCR. Because the NCR are far from perfect, and very much like the Legion, NCR included, has it's flaws of corruption.

Though ultimately, any courier can decide the fate of either army in the end. Fallout New Vegas has it's gray zone, and we players and modders can write our own story as we see fit.

_________________
"We cannot solve problems using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them..." -Albert Einstein
"Quite the experience to live under fear, is it? That's what it means to be a slave..."
-Roy Batty (r.i.p. Rutger Hauer)

The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. KluBBcQ

Do not send me PMs for download links in terms of my mods. You will not receive a response, so don't bother. Wait until they are published. Thank you.
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Vizsla

Vizsla

Posts : 35
Join date : 2017-07-12
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Character sheet
Name: Gaius Magnus
Faction: Caesar's Legion
Level: 50

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PostSubject: Re: The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it.   The Legion are fascists, let's discuss it. EmptySun Jun 30, 2019 9:48 pm

As a player who always mains the game with the legion, let me drop some opinions on my handsome skirt wearing machete fetish boys :

(Btw just because I play with the legion on a ficticious game doenst mean Im a fascist or that I have a boner for senpai Mussolini/Salazar, or that makes me a fascist at wall a video game and real life are two very distinct thinks) 


Point 1 (and a minor one to the discussion) - The legion Military versus the NCR : Contrary to what @"WeissYohji" said in my opinion the legion isnt losing to the NCR, and its far from it not even will the NCR crush the legion without the corier help. 
 If we take a look at the state of the mojave the NCR is losing both in moral and on battlefield. The troopers are deserting (as seen in Primm ) and their moral is the same as a virgin in vegas (non existing) in contrary the legion recruits are eager for battle wishing to be sent to the front and battle to the last man. 
 On the field the legion is swarming the NCR, they established raiding camps, they raided Ranger Station Charlie, had taken controll of nelson and their equipment there, and are even so far as nipton. And what is the NCR doing ? Sitting in their asses as they loose 1000 troops a year (as told by chief halon). And let us not forget that the legion will without player interference : Blow up the monorail, kill president kimball, swarm and take camp forlon hope, Chief Hanlon will continue spread misinformance, the khans join the legion and flank the NCR at Hoover Dam, no one will turn the turbines on during the battle or betten back the legion to them, making the battle plane of lanius of flaking the NCR a sucess. 
Side Note : The BOS will atack hellios one crimpling even more the NCR and shortly after the legion will take it from the BOS, Camp McCarran will fall for the fiends and the omertas will bomb the NCR embassy.

From the look of it the legion will win if theres no courier.

The NCR is also bond to incompetent leaders like Oliver whos kepping the few heavy infantry he has as last line guards (just not to count the ones guarding the Brahim Barons in the capital) while the rangers are on some ghost hunt in Baja.  
 Low supplies as told by the Ex NCR Soldier in the 188 trading post, that metions that some recrutis dont even get the propper atire. (The legion leather its actually quite resistance to blunt damage and slashes despite Pop Culture represeting leather as weak in reall life its actually a pretty cheap and resistant material)

And the legion isnt charging with only rocks and spears they are actually well armed. Not to metion the rigorous train they endure from the moment they are assimilated or reach age to serve.

 Even Cassandra Moore will tell you about the extraordinary physic of their soldiers, yes they focus meele but they still use guns even recruits ar armed at least with cowboy repeaters or single shotguns and 9mm pistols and whatever they get from their kills. What essentialy makes them formidabel fighters capable of engage in melee in case of running out of amunitions or for close combat or stealth kill.

(Will post part 2 later running out of time sorry guys)
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