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 Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?

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Transient3292

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PostSubject: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:57 am

So I'm playing through the questline for the Brotherhood of steel and had forgotten how different they are from Fallout 4's BOS. I should probably mention that I installed DragBody's Brotherhood reforged as well as FO4 Power Armor mods and they are epic! Paladin Hardin looks like his character sounds and fits his personality extremely well. I was never a huge fan of the BOS in the past, but I think these mods made me perceive them very differently.

One thing New Vegas does very well is flesh out the people in the factions, and then give the player multiple options on how they can affect each faction. In the case of the Brotherhood, I couldn't fully decide if there was a right or wrong answer on how to help them. I also haven't fully finished so I could be wrong on that.This time I decided that although McNamara means well, he could very well destroy the BOS by playing it too safe. It's interesting that i feel that way, because in FO4 I felt that they were acting too much like aggressors and acting in a similiar way to a nation that goes around taking land and things from others. Which is also interesting because of all the main factions in New Vegas, I am leaning towards the NCR being the best bet for the Mojave.

I'd say the reasoning for me felling this way is because of all the different dialogue we're given to help decide on each group's intentions. I think the mojave brotherhood seems different to me because there is no polarizing leader like Elder Maxson. I guess he seems like he'd betray anyone and do anything for whatever agenda he has personally. Maybe I just haven't given it enough thought, but I guess I just don't believe that Maxson doesn't want to conquer and rule as much territory as possible. I suppose I should play further into NV before I decide if the mojave brotherhood are any different, but I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:51 am

McNamara. Though ultimately both are not very good choices. That said, Hardin's agressive expansionist goals are ultimately what led to the collapse of the Western Brotherhood. A return to those ways, particularly with the order so weak, is foolish. McNamara can at least afford the brotherhood a few more years, but ultimately, the group will never recover. And once he's gone, unless they can reunite with a larger chapter, they are doomed to either go extinct, or be overrun by a larger force like the NCR, particularly as neither group seems entirely willing to give up all of their hostilities with one another.

The Mojave Brotherhood is doomed regardless.

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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:17 pm

It ultimately depends on what you want the Mojave Chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel to do in the Mojave. If you want the BOS to be more aggressive in the Mojave(at least in the ending slides) then go with Hardin. You would probably want to side with McNamara if you want the BOS to be buddy buddy-ish with the NCR.

But as Irorieth stated, the chapter is doomed to fall because of their codex and conflict with the NCR. Unless the Main West Coast Chapter develops/discovers a wonder weapon that would destroy the NCR and any other big factions in the wasteland, the BOS will fall.

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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:20 pm

@"Transient3292" Depends really, personally I go with McNamara mainly due to my play through is siding with the NCR
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:44 pm

McNamara is my way to go. The guy has problems, sure everybody does, but at least he's willing to make truce with the NCR unlike Hardin.
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:48 pm

@njmanga097 wrote:
McNamara is my way to go. The guy has problems, sure everybody does, but at least he's willing to make truce with the NCR unlike Hardin.
I agree, Hardin is just a dick lmao.
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:27 pm

No, Hardin is better, but this is why, the NCR bastards who attacked them for no reason, although they did not attack in general, Hardin is right, it is necessary to destroy the NCR by all means.
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:57 pm

@Enclave11 wrote:
No, Hardin is better, but this is why, the NCR bastards who attacked them for no reason, although they did not attack in general, Hardin is right, it is necessary to destroy the NCR by all means.

NCR and BoS has been at war for years, so it was hardly no reason at all.

The BoS supposedly started the war with the NCR in order to stop their growth, and claimed it was in order prevent them from taking control of pre war tech that could be dangerous in their hands, though as Mr. House points out, the Brotherhood only really seems to care about weapons tech, and hoarding it for their own use. While events like the destruction of Hopeville could be seen as proving the Brotherhood right, their supremacist attitude of simply keeping knowledge away from savage wastelands, as opposed to educating them in the why and how this technology can be dangerous/safely used is more indicative of the Brotherhood as a whole.

To say Hardin is better is to ignore that the attitude Hardin takes toward outsiders, and the way he has the Courier deal with the Van Graffs is precisely why the Brotherhood have pretty much been rendered extinct in California. They're preaching from a position of claimed moral superiority, that only they possess the right to hold this tech, and decide how it is used, whereas the NCR take the stance that technology is meant to be used to increase the prosperity of the Republic. NCR may not always be in the right, but here, they aren't wrong.

The Brotherhood of the Brotherhood War, from what we can tell, was a tyrannical order that sought to keep the wasteland technologically stunted, and maintain their own technological superiority, likely spurred on following the discovery that groups like the Shi and the Enclave were just as advanced, or even more so than they were. What they fail to realise, is that their superiority is a mirage. Yes, they have power armour, better training and weapons, but they lack numbers, ability to produce food, proper understanding of Wasteland survival, all things which throughout the FNV story, show weaknesses in the supposed power of the Brotherhood. Their scouts are wiped out by basic wasteland hazards, or simply by underestimating local groups, they require runners to procure food, without whom their entire bunker would starve. They don't have the numbers to make much difference in the battle of Hoover Dam (they send about 3 paladins) and they are being suffocated (literally) by adherence to their own strict and rigid codex.

Ironically enough, in the ending where Hardin gets his wishes, the Legion ending, and the Brotherhood retake Helios One, they are summarily overrun and wiped out by the Legion, which should be more than enough of an indicator of exactly where Hardin's ambitions will ultimately lead.

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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:34 pm

@IRORIEH Thats an explanation and a half +1 for solid lore explanation and a thought out post...For the Republic!

Personally McNamara offers the best option between them. And he is the only one who can make peace. At first he comes off as paranoid, but later on you see that he is just being protective and lifts the lockdown anyway. I side with him because he offers a peace agreement with the NCR and still ends the lockdown.

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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:34 pm

I don't like any of those 2 leaders but if i need to choose i would choose Hardin all the way! just because the glory of the old brotherhood and i think his intentions were a good choice.

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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:03 am

McNamara only if you have a alliance with the NCR. Otherwise they really are doomed unless its an Independent Vegas. But i like NCR and BoS ending.

Hardin's not bad but im not too familiar with the brotherhood questline - but i dont see a long term BoS with him

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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:21 am

For an ethical reason, McNamara is a good choice. He is not the one to lead the Brotherhood to rise up again, he's more likely to keep them going for a more couple of years before they are finally wiped out, either by you, NCR or Legion. The Brotherhood refuse to change and will die by their ideas.
For gameplay reasons, it's still McNamara. Only because I still want to keep Veronica as a companion after I destroy them. You get the highest reputation if he is still elder.

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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:50 pm

@blahblahblah wrote:
McNamara only if you have a alliance with the NCR. Otherwise they really are doomed unless its an Independent Vegas. But i like NCR and BoS ending.

Hardin's not bad but im not too familiar with the brotherhood questline - but i dont see a long term BoS with him

Isn't there an option for a Legion/Brotherhood alliance too? I may be wrong as I haven't really sided with the Legion before lmao.
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:29 pm

@kushxOG wrote:
@blahblahblah wrote:
McNamara only if you have a alliance with the NCR. Otherwise they really are doomed unless its an Independent Vegas. But i like NCR and BoS ending.

Hardin's not bad but im not too familiar with the brotherhood questline - but i dont see a long term BoS with him

Isn't there an option for a Legion/Brotherhood alliance too? I may be wrong as I haven't really sided with the Legion before lmao.

Yes, sort of. Via a mod that restores some uncut content I believe, alternatively you can simply neutralise some Brotherhood members and leave the others alive. Either way, the ending is the same, with the Brotherhood attacking the retreating NCR and taking Helios One before being attacked and quickly defeated by the legion. So they lose either way.

The only ending that results in a somewhat flourishing Brotherhood is an anarchist Vegas, which is pretty much a disastrous result for every other faction. The Brotherhood's success is dependent on their being no real power to oppose them, but also creates a vacumn which could realistically be filled by a full scale invasion by a returning NCR or Legion which would ultimately see the whole thing happen over again.

The Brotherhood is stuck in a pretty hopeless cycle, mainly, as Veronica points out, because of their strict adherence to the codex.

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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:39 am

neither, me. and if im not an option then I wipe them off
the face of my Mojave
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:49 am

Might as well have Caesar lead the brotherhood. Wink The west coast's BOS factions have never really had much of a chance of being any more than a minor faction, and don't realize it.
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:49 am

i personally chose McNamara but now i am starting to have second thoughts on who to choose for next play through for McNamara you could forge an alliance with the ncr but is that what the brotherhood really want while hardins methods are pretty aggressive to say the least since he sends you out to kill the van graffs and if you chose the peaceful option to cass quest killing them would make it harder for ncr caravans to function back west if i'm remembering it right but in the end the brotherhood is doomed to fail due to their codex unless they find a way to make themselves stronger i don't see a good endgame for the brotherhood
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:18 am

Well thought out post @IRORIEH . At that point of my playthrough I hadn't heard or given much thought to how Hardin felt about the long term future regarding the NCR. I can't remember anything about the endings or much of the backstory details with this being my first playthrough in years, so I'm trying to kinda roleplay these decisions how I would if I were the courier. I definitely think the NCR is the best bet for the long term of the Mojave.I like the BOS and from what i remember about them from FO3, they seemed like helping defend civilians was part of their mission statement. If it's possible I'd like to whatever I can to help make the BOS and NCR work together.

The most important factor for me in deciding the best faction to back up is some level of stability, and actively trying to get rid of raiders and fiends as much as possible. The NCR aren't without problems, but there are plenty of their military personnel that I've encountered that genuinely care about improving people's quality of life. I'm still not close to finished with all of the dialogue throughout the game, so maybe I'll feel different about it later.
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PostSubject: Re: Hardin or McNamara for BOS Mojave chapter?   Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:16 am

McNamara is honestly more levelheaded, and is willing to make some compromises to fight alongside the NCR at the battle, even if they have had some bad history with them. He seems to be a more flat Neutral kinda guy. He is the diplomatic approach, and honestly, the one I tend to choose.

Hardin is quite a bit more strict. He will not work with the NCR at Hoover Dam, because of their bad history, and doesn't trust outsiders at all. He is straight Lawful Neutral, and die-hard Brotherhood.

Intimately their differences in terms of the Brotherhood is basically just them interpreting the Codex differently, and weighing parts of it with more or less importance. Hardin is all about the mission to secure tech, while McNamara believes the parts about survival area more important right now.

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