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 Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?

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PostSubject: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:58 pm

After I made my video on how to remaster Fallout New Vegas with mods, which became massive in the modding community, I started to question the consumers a bit more. I got many comments saying how much GUN Network sucks and that they force you to ass kiss them for their content. Obvious false statements from people who never even visited the site, who just spread rumors. I also got comments from people who wanted to copy entire data folders of mods into their game because they were too lazy or didn't have enough time to totally transform their game. Being a mod author myself, this made me question if the community we kindly serve really cares about us much at all.

Picture this, if you were to copy an entire data folder of random mods because you're too stubborn and arrogant to take your time to check out each mod page, download and even endorse the mods, would mod authors really be getting the attention they deserve? Are people self entitled to mods?
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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:22 pm

I've seen a lot of people bash GUN, mostly because they are so used to getting mods off the Nexus with no effort. I can understand why they are annoyed that they can't just get instant access, but at the same time, having people actually work for the mods and sometimes interact with the mod authors themselves adds a lot more appreciation for the work that is being done.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:27 pm

It's a fair question. I think modder's are always going to be the unsung heroes of the community, in a way?

Are people self-entitled? Yeah, probably. We rely on mods as much as we do the actual game. I think especially with  FO4 (where the fanbase was really divided on it) mods became even more important to having a good experiece, so the need for mods overtook the sense of appreciation.

I hope that makes sense. I'm smart, I swear. Haha
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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:28 pm

I think with modding you get a vast range of diversity when it comes to consumers, and with that you're naturally going to get a vast range of personalities.

Some people warm to the GUN community and will happily get involved to obtain hidden mods

Some people hate GUN, whether it be a bad experience, or jumping on the band wagon of hate due to word of mouth, or when people don't fully know the reasons for hidden mods, they fill the gaps and make up their own assumptions

On the opposite side of the coin, you have people who love the easy access and user friendly installation methods of the Nexus

Then you have other people who hate Nexus and their apparent strict methods of banning people from the site (from what I've heard)

Naturally people begin with using Nexus, it's far more popular and with thousands of mods. When somebody goes from having mods handed to them on a plate by Nexus, to GUN's hidden mods and ranking system, they get frustrated by this alien concept.

I think people do get self entitled when it comes to mods and it's understandable, people don't understand why they can't just have mods like everywhere else, even though if you look into it there's actually ethical and logical reasons behind hidden mods. Reasons go beyond creating a 'big boy club', or at least, from my own experience when talking to modders.

As annoying as it might be, I think it should be expected when making a decision that's going to negatively affect the many

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:15 pm

To be honest, I think that around half of the people who actually use mods take them for granted a bit too much, and get carried away - not even bothering to be grateful and whatnot for the time that mod authors put into their creations.

On the other hand, there's the half that are grateful, and do support the mod authors, whether it be leaving a positive comment on their mod, rating their mod or even suggesting mods. These are the type of people who are on GUN.

People who are 'self-entitled' to mods are not part of the modding community, they don't have much or any interaction with the community - mods are something that they expect to be handed to them.

However, I recently re-watched a video that originally brought me to GUN and I looked at the comments, it was full of people complaining about the GUN hidden system and insulting the whole idea of hidden mods. These are the people who are self-entitled to mods and take them for granted, the people who can't be bothered to join a community and earn the mods that they play.

Some people take mods for granted without realising (which I'm find with) but others know what they're doing, and they're still self-entitled to mods - these are the people who I think perfectly match your description.

Overall, most mod-players aren't knowingly self entitled to mods, but the ones who are, really have a sense of arrogance and seem to be spoilt in a way.



-Keep in mind this is just what I've experienced from my 3-4 years of using mods and is just my opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:08 pm

Self entitled? In this day and age? Surely you jest. I'm the clinical definition of "consumer" when it comes to mods...food...alcohol I can't make any of them but I'll take all I can get. I thoroughly enjoy a quality mod more-so than a good cigar...I've stumbled onto some amazing ones, but that's because you can't google "awesome mod" with any degree of repeat success. I've dabbled in photoshop recoloring of loose files so mods from different authors are more pleasing to my eye. It still baffles me when I look at those files and think "holy shit...this started as an empty screen...and now it's a frickin' (insert awesome mod here)

All of that said...does that mean that I'm owed the result of someone else's talent time and effort? I'm not a liberal...If someone makes a mod...and decides to share it...that's awesome; accept it at face value and do not expect "unlimited and unending" updates, changes, and technical support because the unintended beneficiary of the mod author's product doesn't know how to use it...should the mod author offer any level of the above...then again good on them as they are a far better person than I...I'm not a doctor I have no patients or patience. To expect any of the above...up to and including the sharing of the mod itself is asinine and absurd.

However, should a mod author make their talents available for the commissioning of custom content...then that is a transaction with a contractual agreement with the buyer...then there is a level of expectations that are agreed upon and compensation is agreed upon and so on...but that wouldn't be self entitled that would be an entitlement that is set between the involved parties.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:04 pm

What some people can't seem to grasp, is that this is someone's hobby. That whoever made the mod took time out of their day not only to make said mod, but to share the mod with their site/community. No one deserves a mod. If you didn't make it, it's not yours. But then even sometimes if you make the "What if you made x, and someone said I deserve that, give it to me." comparison, they'll simply say that "it's not the same." How? How is that not the same!?

Sorry, but I hate people who think they're entitled to anything. I mean, besides if someone actually deserves something, like pay from a job or something. That I can understand someone getting upset over. But if you're crying because someone made a piece of unofficial digital content and you can't just simply have it, then you need to rethink your life.

Just my two cents on this matter. The people who actually support mod authors and know/understand that they get basically nothing from modding, I say are the actual community. Not these whiney children/man-children.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:43 pm

the mods belong to the modder, he can share them with anyone he wants to, its like we were in school and you'll make a drawing and people will copy it for their own notebook to look cool but then a couple of kids would get mad because you didn't share it with them.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:30 pm

Oh yep, that's us liberals, bunch a lazy self entitled scumbags :p. Seriously though I don't even have access to mods here anymore but yeah, people saying you need to "kiss ass" to get in are being ridiculous. All you've got to do is interact with the community for a little while and not be a dick (I guess some people don't see the difference between having a basic amount of respect and kissing ass?)

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:22 pm

I think it's the about the precedent that was set originally. In the early days of modding, I feel like the mod was the focus, not the modder. But that dynamic has shifted somewhat, and people mistake that for modders being arrogant.
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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:40 pm

I speculate that most players do not know the difference between paid content and user mods. A lot of people have this misconception that mods are a product that they paid for when they got the game when it should be treated more like a painting in a museum.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:10 pm

@farlas816 wrote:
Oh yep, that's us liberals, bunch a lazy self entitled scumbags :p. Seriously though I don't even have access to mods here anymore but yeah, people saying you need to "kiss ass" to get in are being ridiculous. All you've got to do is interact with the community for a little while and not be a dick (I guess some people don't see the difference between having a basic amount of respect and kissing ass?)

Dude I'm in the same boat! Just lost my mod access. It sucks, I feel like I just lost super-powers or something. But, y'know, too bad. I completely understand why.

I think it's important to facilitate an environment where modders have control over the distribution of their mods. I mean, it's their work after all. I think GUN is a total pathway into that, where modders can have a more secretive and elite course of action.

That's funny about the "Data" folder story, though. People are so lazy.
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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:05 am

I'm a bit half-half with it. I don't support modpiracy, but I kinda feel both sides of the argument.
Modding New Vegas/Fallout 3 is quite an esoteric topic and community. And so getting help to running the game without problems is so much of a challenge because it comes from countless trial and effort as well as days or weeks of experimenting, chasing down forums, and can be disappointing to say the least.

Especially when the mod you need has been either taken down or put under "private access" which can leave you stumped in the process of getting your game up to full working condition. So the whole "people who wanted to copy entire data folders of mods into their game" isn't always seen as laziness.

I went through doing Fear and Loathing in New Vegas at least 4 times before I gave up for a while, I felt like I wasted weeks of my life on it. And when you beg YouTubers to at least share links or give actual info (not saying you didn't Exotic) it can be frustrating and feel pointless.

The thing I hate is when you come across a technical problem when installing a certain mod (e.g. https://imgur.com/gallery/oEsCI )  and other people's reaction is, "well I have no problems so it's your fault lmao" or "just install it".

That being said, modders (both on Nexus and GUN) go through a lot of effort to creating some amazing experiences to revive older titles like this. So, I guess it is what it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:21 am

@ahyuser001 wrote:
I speculate that most players do not know the difference between paid content and user mods. A lot of people have this misconception that mods are a product that they paid for when they got the game when it should be treated more like a painting in a museum.

Funny enough, I believe it's more so to do with the concept of cathedral modding and the current debate versus parlor modding than the ignorance between free and paid mods, or even entitlement.
For those who aren't aware of Wrye's musings:
Quote :
There are essentially two ways that modders view the place of their creations in the modding community: The Cathedral view, and the Parlor view.

In the Cathedral view, modding is viewed as being like a joint effort to build a cathedral. Individually, our contributions may be small – and may not be worth doing for themselves. But by each person contributing something, we construct something larger and more worthwhile than any of us could do on our own. Under this view, creations are contributions – and may not be taken back. (Just as in building a Cathedral, it would not be allowed for a person to contribute a stained glass window and then later take it back.)

The Parlor view in contrast, is the view that mods are more like privately owned works of art displayed in the modder's parlor. The modder invites others into the parlor to appreciate and enjoy the work of art – but may at any time close the parlor door and ask their guests to leave. And of course, the modder may be very selective about who they invite into their parlor. Under this view, our creations are never contributions; rather we continue to own and control them – takebacks are normal and accepted.

The Parlor view allows the creator to retain complete control of their work. But the Cathedral view creates a much larger, more enduring and more perfected body of work – and for that reason, I prefer it.

I totally understand the stance against the Parlor view on modding, and lets be honest, this community is heavily in favor for it, but for good reason—considering most of the mods being hosted here are ports and ripped assets from other games being modded in to an already existing property, a legal grey area. It makes sense to gate these mods from public view, especially from unwanted attention. I believe that those who are "self entitled" mostly stems from the unawareness of the legality of these mods.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:30 am

@ExoticRPGs wrote:
After I made my video on how to remaster Fallout New Vegas with mods, which became massive in the modding community, I started to question the consumers a bit more. I got many comments saying how much GUN Network sucks and that they force you to ass kiss them for their content. Obvious false statements from people who never even visited the site, who just spread rumors. I also got comments from people who wanted to copy entire data folders of mods into their game because they were too lazy or didn't have enough time to totally transform their game. Being a mod author myself, this made me question if the community we kindly serve really cares about us much at all.

I'm sorry to distract from the topic at hand, but can you (or someone) please provide a link to that video?

I'm always in need of mod reviewers to watch TMHug-Royaba
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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:37 pm

Yes they are, and I too have done it. I think the majority of modders are to a point. It’s hard not be when you see a Mod that you’ve been personally wanting for awhile. You get so excited for it, then when it’s released and you can’t have it because it’s a special release, or you as a Mod user don’t meet criteria X,Y, and Z, so you can’t download it. It’s frustrating and A lot of people take it more srerious than it actually is. There are a lot of great mods that I’ve seen that haven’t come out yet, stopped production, or don’t have access to. While it’s disappointing at most, I’m not bashing the Mod Author for their work, and my opinion of it. There’s definitely an entitlement issue. My honest opinion, Depending on the Mod (quality, content, etc.) I wouldn’t mind paying the Mod Author for mods. The reason I say that is because I’m rarely ( really rarely) ever on the forum to contribute, so I know I’ll never have access to certain mods that people that have worked their butt off to contribute get. I have absolutely nothing against GUN and it’s community, Nexus, Or any of the other modding communities for building structure to the modding community for access to content, it’s just one of those things that I personally don’t think about on a daily basis, otherwise I probably would contribute more. I DO think it would be a nice option for those in the community who aren’t as active to get access to some of that content, via Mod Author Donation, Subscription or something. I know that people don’t agree with the whole Paid content / DLC thing, because they believe it should be free or it should’ve been part of the original game...well, if all of the content had been in the original game, the damn thing would have been released because they’d still be working on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:11 pm

I don't know if I'd say self entitled as the right term for them. I think most people are just pretty uneducated when it comes to the amount of work/effort put into creating mods, hence why the majority of new modders who come onto the scene with grandiose plans of gigantic mods with no prior experience often sizzle out, and why the majority of mods on the Nexus are quite small, usually reskins, simple companions or tweaks.

This also extends to mod installation, and how to properly organise your data folder/esp and esm files. A lot of people don't really know how, and don't have any interest in learning because after all, Fallout (or other popular modded games) is a game and they only really want to play it as a little bit escapist entertainment. That argument also extends to why people feel the need to complain about mod content not been freely available. They just want it there in their game so they can play it, and while I don't feel that anyone is entitled to anything, I can appreciate that someone may not be able/want to commit themselves to a community in order to "unlock" those mods.

The answer of course is they don't join the community and don't get the mods. They could learn to create this content themselves, though that's the long way around and pretty much pointless as all hell. If they don't have the time for a forum, they don't have the time to learn to use all the tools required. This of course, inevitably leads to mod piracy.

It's a double edged argument to me, because if your defence for mod piracy is that you don't have the time to commit to the game or community, then you won't really miss those mods in game, you'd probably barely notice their existence, as many of the mods in the private section aren't really going to massively impact or transform your game. And it's not as though you need to sell your firstborn to gain access to the private section, just be active and follow the rules. People act as though it's impossible to achieve unless they dedicate their lives to the site.

I think it simply comes down to patience. People lack patience. No one wants to be told they can't have something. A lot of the time the allure is directly linked to the fact that it is being restricted from them.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:52 pm

@Arcades wrote:
I've seen a lot of people bash GUN, mostly because they are so used to getting mods off the Nexus with no effort. I can understand why they are annoyed that they can't just get instant access, but at the same time, having people actually work for the mods and sometimes interact with the mod authors themselves adds a lot more appreciation for the work that is being done.

Nice profile picture by the way. What do you think of my Desert ranger mod?


@loneheart9 wrote:
@ExoticRPGs wrote:
After I made my video on how to remaster Fallout New Vegas with mods, which became massive in the modding community, I started to question the consumers a bit more. I got many comments saying how much GUN Network sucks and that they force you to ass kiss them for their content. Obvious false statements from people who never even visited the site, who just spread rumors. I also got comments from people who wanted to copy entire data folders of mods into their game because they were too lazy or didn't have enough time to totally transform their game. Being a mod author myself, this made me question if the community we kindly serve really cares about us much at all.

I'm sorry to distract from the topic at hand, but can you (or someone) please provide a link to that video?

I'm always in need of mod reviewers to watch TMHug-Royaba

Just look up Fallout New Vegas remaster on Youtube. Mine is literally at the top.
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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:00 pm

That’s true, I guess I didn’t look at it that way. Patience plays a key role in a lot of things, and easy to lose in today’s instant/automatous/“Everything at your fingertips” society. If people want it, they buy it or steal it, and they don’t want to wait for it ( damn you, Amazon Prime). But I will argue that saying someone doesn’t have time to be on the forum, doesn’t have time to learn the tools required, leads to privacy. I’ve been modding for years, have created my own work (not publicly) and have used the tools, and haven’t stolen anything and republished it or claimed it to be mine. I just choose not to do it because there are people better at it than me (way better) or I simply do not have the time. Some people are just naturally better at things, no matter how much one practices. As far as time, by the time I’m done with work, get home, do whatever else I need to do for the day, and then maybe get some hours in on Fallout or Elder Scrolls, it’s time to go to bed and start the routine over again. Practicing also takes time, and a lot of work. I get it, I went to College for Illustration and Graphic design. I know how it feels to devote all your time into a piece of art ( because that’s what quality mods are) and then either get trash talked to because someone didn’t like one little aspect of it, or have it stolen. So I understand the reason to keep it private, I just think there could be options to open up some content to more people who legitimately want the mods, even if it is for something small that’s not going to massively impact or transform the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Are People "Self Entitled" to Mods?   Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:43 pm

Its something that has been apparent in the modding community for several years now. Since FO3underground, individuals had complained about the lack of ease getting access to mods. Some would guess this would affect the state of our modding community, but we have prospered for years and evolved to a point where these individuals aren't needed for the success of this site. The community in itself has found a group of consumers that don't mind contributing to the website and enjoy conversating with those who develop modifications for the community. As this site continues to develop, I'm sure that those who are fine with lazy downloading will stray away from here while those who are dedicated and committed to the modding scene will continue to thrive here.
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