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 Guns and other outdated weapons

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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PostSubject: Guns and other outdated weapons   Guns and other outdated weapons EmptyTue Jul 14, 2020 4:58 am

I was watching a video by Ian from Forgotten Weapons (if you're a gun enthusiast like me, you've probably heard of Ian, if not, and you like guns, go check him out), and he was basically explaining why bolt action rifles are obsolete. And they are obsolete; it's 100 year old technology, there's just no question about it. But some people in the comments just couldn't deal with that fact and kept trying to argue that with enough practice they could outperform anyone with a semi auto rifle (you can't, let's just get that out of the way). Got me thinking about people holding on to outdated weapons.

I see that a lot in Fallout. Using guns, especially some of the guns you get (I mean, the Gauss Minigun is one thing, but lever-actions rifles or single action revolvers?) in games that includes laser and plasma weaponry is just nonsense. It's like using bows and arrows, when you have modern rifles. I've had people try to argue that actually guns are more useful and practical and serve more purposes (they don't, let's just get that out of the way).

Look, I get it. I love guns. And the sound of the hunting rifle, that metallic ejection, is like music. But that thing is old. the moment I can get a better weapon? I will switch to a better weapon.

Anyway, what do you guys think? What's your logic for taking on robots and mutants using 300 year old weaponry?
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DrumstickBrainTickin246

DrumstickBrainTickin246

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PostSubject: Re: Guns and other outdated weapons   Guns and other outdated weapons EmptyWed Jul 15, 2020 7:01 pm

In the real world or fallout wasteland?

In the real world, you can constantly buy new parts and get quality cleaning.... but that's in the modern world with supply chains/etc.

In the fallout world, bolt-actions would have a place. The wasteland is dirty and nasty; the fanciest, most complicated gun in the world will get clogged up and need frequent cleanings. Bolt-actions, pump-actions, lever actions, and even break-action have the benefit of being simple. Dead simple. Less parts that can break, easier to repair, easier to fix jams, etc.

If the fanciest gun in the world has a decent chance of getting jammed when a raider or deathclaw is charging at you.... lol then it's basically a death sentence. Reliability is king.
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LamaMilk

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PostSubject: Re: Guns and other outdated weapons   Guns and other outdated weapons EmptyWed Jul 15, 2020 7:20 pm

Simplicity and Reliability are kings, even a musket could do for hunting wild life since they are extremely simple to maintain and clean, not to mention the ammo is literal lead which is bountiful and all you need is flint and a cap to light it which would be common.

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gavin gold

gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: Guns and other outdated weapons   Guns and other outdated weapons EmptyWed Jul 15, 2020 8:07 pm

@DrumstickBrainTickin246 No, no you're missing my point. It's not that I don't think it makes sense for wastelanders to use old guns (actually, I don't think it makes sense because of Bethesda's world building, but that's a different conversation). Plenty of people are poor and won't be able to afford anything better. Others may not have the know-how to operate and maintain newer weapons. Or maybe you just pick the weapon with the cheapest, most common ammo that is available to you. That's not what I mean.

I mean you, as the player. When I play a game, I always want the strongest, most advanced weapon, so it's weird to me that some people like sticking to single action revolvers or lever action shotguns, or even traditional guns in general.

Obviously the most important thing is reliability (I mean, barely though; a reliable BB gun is still trash). Well, energy weapons are more reliable than guns, they need less cleaning (which makes sense, because it's energy you shoot, not lead, which is filthy), they jam far less, and there are more than enough parts, repair kits and people with the know how to repair them that you will always be able to keep it at top condition.

It's just weird to me that player will argue that a lever action shotgun is somehow more reliable or does the job better than a gatling laser. It doesn't. You don't really get that kind of thing with other franchises.
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DrumstickBrainTickin246

DrumstickBrainTickin246

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PostSubject: Re: Guns and other outdated weapons   Guns and other outdated weapons EmptyWed Jul 15, 2020 8:50 pm

@gavin gold

As the player character, often times simpler weapons have a better weapon condition and the capability to fire higher calibers. This is usually a gameplay mechanic to offset their slower reloads though. So arguably, in game, a higher caliber break-action has a place if it can one-shot a baddie, where a semi-auto rifle would need more ammo, more time, and cost more weapon condition.

Kind of like the combat rifle in FO76 vs the black powder rifle.... the reload on the black powder is ridiculous, but it hits like a truck. Taking perks out of the equation, the black powder is better in some regards to some of the more modern weapons.

Energy weapons kind of have a scale too though. Like the LAER in New Vegas was a monster, but had almost no weapon condition. Shooting a few magazines out of it basically ruined it. And in the lore, the AER9 (the fallout 3/nv laser rifle) and the AEP7 (FO3/NV laser pistol) weren't the most advanced laser weapons.... they were just the ones that were built tougher.

But I understand what you mean about the Gatling laser beating out the lever-action-shotty (not the best comparison though, as Gatling laser is top-tier heavy energy while lever-action-shotty is mid-tier medium guns weapon).... but even then, I use the crappier weapons often, to save ammo/caps. It's the same as the old joke in RPG's where you save all your healing items to the end, not even using them on the last boss.... because there might be a 2nd final boss?!
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gavin gold

gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: Guns and other outdated weapons   Guns and other outdated weapons EmptyThu Jul 16, 2020 7:53 pm

@DrumstickBrainTickin246

Quote :
As the player character, often times simpler weapons have a better weapon condition and the capability to fire higher calibers. This is usually a gameplay mechanic to offset their slower reloads though. So arguably, in game, a higher caliber break-action has a place if it can one-shot a baddie, where a semi-auto rifle would need more ammo, more time, and cost more weapon condition.

Yeah, but let me give you an example of what I mean. In NV, the sniper rifle is semi auto. It has low recoil and fast rate of fire. Ammo is cheap and light. It's a pretty decent weapon. If you need something tougher, then you would go for the Gauss Rifle. It's light, fast, and does more damage than any other rifle. Ammo is also plentiful and relatively light. There's just no reason to go for a bolt action anti materiel rifle. Yet it's one of the player's favorites, despite the fact that it loses in almost every comparison with similar weapons.

I know the comparison between the Gatling laser and the lever action shotgun is unfair. But that's my point, that players will choose to keep the lever action shotgun rather than using the Gatling laser despite the fact one is so overwhelmingly better.

To me, what convinced me to use energy weapons was ammo.

Look

Guns have a lot of different types of ammo. You can't carry them all so you end up selling the ones you're not using or simply not picking them up. Then you find a significantly better weapon, but you have no ammo to use it. And when you acquire some, the ammo you were using for your previous weapon becomes useless.

Also, working with reloading benches is just to complicated. To make ammo you need 4 ingredients: the right cases, the right powder, the right primer, and lead. Lead is plentiful, but the others are not, unless you want to break down ammo, and you lose money when you do because you transform perfectly good ammo that someone could buy into parts that are worthless by themselves. Like with all recipes, you're always running short of one ingredient. You can't make enough ammo that way to keep up with the the rate of fire of some automatic weapons. And the really impressive rounds (armor piercing, explosive...) can't be crafted at all. You can only make normal, or hand loaded, but most of the hand loaded ammo are just slightly more efficient anti personnel round, meaning they're effectively worthless because soft targets aren't difficult to kill, armored targets are.

Energy weapons use three kinds of ammo. SEC for pistols, MF for rifles, ECP for automatic weapons. To make more of them you just need drained ammo. That's it. No complicated recipes. They can be converted into each other no problem. You have a lot of SEC but no MF and found a rifle? Just convert them and you're good to go. Improved versions are markedly better. You can craft all versions. And vigilant recycler recipes, though not as good as a max charged one, are still great, weight less and can be made in greater quantities, making them perfect for automatic weapons.

That's a complete game changer. You never run out ammo. In fact, you often have excess you can sell.
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Sonichu_fanboy

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PostSubject: Re: Guns and other outdated weapons   Guns and other outdated weapons EmptyThu Jul 16, 2020 8:20 pm

it's a videogame. fallout games have a hierarchy of weapon tiers you get, starting with small pistols and double barreled shotguns in the early game, moving onto hunting rifles and weak automatic weapons in the mid game, and onto assault rifles, heavy and energy weapons, and high tech small guns, like the "tacticool" g11s or full auto jackhammers or the devastating gauss rifle. it's been that way for a while, letting the players hold on to "obsolete" weapons in the end game is a relatively new concept for a fallout game, starting with the great balancing of fallout: new vegas(letting every build get to the end of the game in some way, even, for example, cowboys who only use revolvers and lever action rifles), and balance is a much smaller factor in fallout 4, as weapon modding changes how weapons behave, and you could get something ridiculous like an exploding minigun or a bleeding submachine gun, or a never ending double barrel shotgun, as early as concord. Personally, I preferred the older way of balancing the game, as it meant you would be excited about getting the next big weapon, in the newer games, you can use pretty much anything and get somewhere with it, question comes down personal taste and role playing rather than anything now

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