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 Fallout 3 gets no love.

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Mr_Lowrie

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Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 4:30 am

this yt channel gives all love to fo3

This guy doesn't have a single fnv video for some reason but has a ton of modding tutorials, mod reviews, and playthroughs for fo3. I found him when I was starting to learn 2.49 blender

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Sirdanest

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Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 1:57 am

I can't find it now, but I could have sworn that years ago I read an article that Caesar's legion was once slightly more grey... nasty and harsh, but no more "evil" than they had to be. Bethesda pressured them to make Caesar less pleasant.
Maybe I imagined it because I can't find it now.
But yeah, the "villains" in fallout are almost never as well written as they could have been. You either can't really join them, or they aren't as well developed, or they're more "evil" than they needed to be. The Enclave are really seriously notorious for their over the top destructive plans. Caesar could have accomplished all of his goals, literally, without the sexism, and the legion side of the story and quests didn't seem as deep. The institute writing is infamously well known; the developers favored House and the Minute men I think.
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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 3:57 am

@Sirdanest The thing with Caesar is that he seems to dislike women to the point of self detriment. Because there are good arguments to want your society to adhere to more traditional gender roles, specially when that society is low tech. Female bodies are weaker and have less muscle mass, so they make poor soldiers, especially in an army such as the legion which puts so much focus on physical fitness. Also, without modern medicine, and presumably high infant mortality rates, women kind of have to be baby factories, because otherwise your society dies out. People can afford to have just one or two kids these days because it's very rare for children to die young, the normal thing is for them to reach adulthood, and once they do, they'll likely live long lives and will get the chance to pass on their genes. But in the past child deaths were very common and mortality due to disease or war was incredibly high, so you had as many children as you could.

But Caesar never argues any of that. He never gives a reason why the legion treats women are cattle, when even groups like ISIS or the Taliban could tell you why. He doesn't let them serve in the army, which like I said makes some sense, however, for the same reason, women shouldn't be used for heavy labor, and yet he does.

On the other hands, the sexism isn't out of place. When you look at groups in history who behave like the legion does, I'd be surprised if women weren't treated like that.

The Institute is a special case because it's the less evil of all villains, to the point where they had to throw some unexplainable and completely nonsensical evil acts just to make it seem more of a proper villain ("Hey, why exactly are you releasing murdering super mutants to the commonwealth again?" - "iT's ToO cOmPlIcAtEd. yOu wOuLdN't UnDeRsTaNd")

But yeah, Bethesda doesn't know how to write good villains.
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@zaz3L

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 13, 2020 11:47 am

I don't know if Bethesda hasn't known how to write good villains (past tense)...Dagoth Ur in TES3 was outstanding, and he had a deep pathos about him. He wasn't evil, he was corrupted doing his job, then abandoned, and then demonized by the arrogant and hypocritical Tribunal Gods. His hatred stems from betrayal, sorrow, and being blamed for the death of his friend. A death committed by people now celebrated and worshiped. He was complicated, and that really aided in the story. You never really knew if you were doing the right thing or the wrong thing, and having that be your choice and interpretation allowed for a more immersive experience.

Then for whatever reason, Bethsoft just decided to trade in their pathos driven madmen in favor what's really been some cookie cutter villainy. From the John Henry Eden Self-Aware AI who hates because it hates, to the Mythic Dawn who are revenging their fallen ancestors because "honor", to Caesar whose motives are kill to save with an infrastructure that is very much unclear and confusing, to the Institute that... is basically Eden's idealogy in a cleaner facility, or Alduin who destroys because he is a destroyer.

It's feels like villainy for the sake of filling an antagonist gap, opposed to having deeper motives that happen to make them the primary antagonist. How much of that is deliberate vs how much of that is just time constraints I couldn't say. I do know New Vegas was unfinished at release. Fallout 4 felt unfinished (with the sheer volume of empty in that game). They went the monetized add-ons route, which is a whole different can-of-worms to unpack. At least Caesar has a reason, or at least a suitable reason to explain his reason, opposed to Shaun who is basically just an evil Willy Wonka with unresolved daddy issues.

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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 1:25 am

@@zaz3L The Institute isn't even a villain. It was so artificially made.

Why would a scientific institution need someone like Kellog? What can Kellog do that a courser or just a normal syth couldn't do better?

Why try to kidnap a child (which his mother is certainly going to resist) when you could bring them all to the institute? I mean they might be highly intelligent and skilled, and what if Shawn doesn't work, are you going to go back to the vault and defrost the guy who just saw his wife getting murdered to ask him for help?

What is the point of kidnapping people, killing them and replacing them with synths, when just sending someone new to a settlement will do? And for that matter, what's the point of that as well? It's not even possible to get into the institute so who cares what the people on the surface are doing?

Why would you infect innocent people with the FEV? That experiment is more than 200 years old and everybody knows just how big of a failure it is.

And the thing is, it's so forced because there's nothing inherently evil about the Institute's activity. If this was Mengele's laboratory or something like that, then at least it might make some sense, but the Institute is just a completely normal scientific institution engaged in very much the same research that any real life scientific institution would care about: Efficient ways to produce basic necessities such as electricity and food, robotics, transportation...

The institute is only evil because of its director. In fact, most people on the inside don't even know what Shawn is doing. You could become the director, give an order to stop the kidnappings and the killings and they very much turn into good guys. A proper villain shouldn't turn on a dime like that. Like, Caesar's Legion is by no means perfect, I think it's such an easy antagonist, but they get that part right at least. Do you think if you were to become Caesar you could reverse everything evil they do and people would just go along with it? It wouldn't work.

Bethesda seems to only be capable of producing two kinds of villains, the mindless evil kind, and the kind that isn't really evil but the story insist that he is.
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@zaz3L

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 12:00 pm

I don't think they ever really fleshed out the direction of the Institute. I know some stuff was cut. I know some stuff was rewritten (to nix Zimmer). If there isn't a logical reason (as in this = led to this = led to this = led to this) they shouldn't force a square to be a circle. Interplay's Fallout villains were outstanding (long before Bethsoft put hands on them). A lot of what we find now originated inside their work, but Bethesda clearly didn't know how to evolve or adapt villains. Raiders are raiders. They do what they do because they're hungry, desperate, and drugged up. It's fine to keep it simple, as long as they aren't carrying a villain arc without someone more dynamic involved leading them. The Institute was a science lab, that became a safe haven for scientists, that became an evil organization bent on world domination...why? You're absolutely right about Kellogg too. WTF do they need him for? Granted, it was 60 years between when they kidnapped Shaun and when the Sole Survivor got out, so they didn't have Coursers yet that could move around and pass as human (Harkness was one of the earliest versions ten years before FO3), but the point you made about them going the kidnap route is absolutely valid. Why? They knew NOTHING about that child. They didn't know if he had any degenerative diseases ahead of time. Nada. They used his DNA to make the Gen 3 synths, but if his DNA was flawed, that flaw would have transferred over to all the Gen3 Synths. They had no idea and just thought "Let's send a random asshole to kidnap a baby that may or may not work because science". It's ludicrous.

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Sirdanest

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Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 2:39 pm

The enclave tend to also be over-played as really out of control evil. Their idea of mutant (that deserves to die) was "everything not enclave." It's beyond mad scientist. Any chance of a nuanced enclave with Autumn vs the old school Enclave that Eden was continuing was very quickly discarded. No fallout writer to my knowledge has wanted a remotely nuanced Enclave, but there was plenty of room for such a thing, while still remaining relatively villainous.
As much as I love fallout, their villains tend not to be as well written as everyone else, being more evil than they need to be. I could have written Caesar as more nuanced -- still incredibly harsh, still an enemy of House and the NCR, but simply doing what he felt he had to do to stop the mistakes of the old world from repeating. Caesar wasn't as black and white as the Enclave and Institute, but still wasn't as well written as the other faction choices.
The NCR, I think, is a great example of a nuance -- rebuild the old world, but at what cost and by what means? The brotherhood other than Lyons is interesting too. Sort of horrible or adversarial sometimes, but not mindless.
Mindless kill-bots or evil "just because" tends to make for a less interesting story.
Luckily, there are mods that address the weaknesses of Fallout 4; like, Join the institute, take over, and call off the fight with the Railroad -- they're on the same side now. I think they made a fatal mistake of assuming an evil character would take over the institute, rather than a good person who simply wants to free the synths and make friends with everyone. Fallout 3's story never really got that much modded depth added like Fallout 4 did.
It's one of the weird things about Bethesda's writing that when you become head of a faction, all that tends to mean is "fancy outfit and no more quests." No management, power, or policy decisions... that goes all the way back to Morrowind's numerous guilds and factions.
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gavin gold

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Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:11 pm

@Sirdanest Interestingly, FO3 has both the mindless evil antagonist and the not really evil one. Eden wants to eliminate basically everyone who isn't Enclave. It's not just plain evil but completely ridiculous. Meanwhile, all Autumn seems to want is for the water purifier to have an Enclave brand.

Quote :
Luckily, there are mods that address the weaknesses of Fallout 4; like, Join the institute, take over, and call off the fight with the Railroad

I don't agree there. Those mods make the game worse, not better.

So, here's the thing. Of course you should have some say in shaping the future of a faction, especially if you become the leader. But in a game that makes such a big deal of player choices, those choices have to mean something.

There's room to solve problems peacefully, but if I give you the option to basically take over any faction and turn it into whatever you want, then choices don't mean anything and every faction becomes the same.

If you are going to choose the Institute, then the Railroad needs to be taken out. They've been enemies for decades, they hate each other and they have opposing ideologies. The Institute believes that synths are just machines and their rightful property. The railroad believes synths are people and they won't rest until the are all freed. How would you make peace between the two?

Also, if a faction is well written, they wouldn't just turn on a dime just because the leader says so. Like you could have some room to decide how to deal with synths. Things like call off courser hunts, allow them better conditions, that kind of thing (and also, the opposite as well, to give the player freedom to choose the future). But ultimately, a faction is who they are. If the Institute suddenly becomes best friends with the Railroad just because you say so, how unsatisfying is that?
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Heisenberg

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Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 7:30 am

Anyone who criticises Eden for being one note is completely missing the point. Eden is an AI. He is supposed to be one note. That was the whole purpose of Enclave radio. It was supposed to imply to the player that Eden is a broken record, constantly trumpeting on about the old days and the strength of the US government 200 years after a Nuclear war. Nobody except Ghouls have lived long enough to reminisce about the old days of picket fences and I doubt a Ghoul is running the Enclave when they're so dedicated to genetic purity.

Autumn is the true villain. Eden was just a front, hence why Autumn's word has more power than Eden's at Raven Rock. When the Lone Wanderer is released from their holding cell by Eden, the Enclave forces at Raven Rock are told by Eden to let the player pass. It is only when Autumn tells them to engage the Lone Wanderer on sight that the Enclave turns hostile. Eden is only the voice used to attract stupid people like Nathan from Megaton to their base and ensure that nobody views them as a threat. Autumn is the true leader of the Enclave and the true antagonist of Fallout 3.

On a different note, I remember playing Fallout 3 for the first time and becoming fascinated by the Institute. When speculation and rumors circulated around that Fallout 4 would feature the Institute as a main faction, I was excited to see them in all their sci-fi glory. Instead, we got a cult of mad scientists whose crowning achievement is something we saw in the last game. I mean, I was expecting them to be so advanced that are working to rebuild the Wasteland, albeit in a dystopian way. The only thing I thought was cool was the teleportation. Even their weapons suck ass in comparison to just about any other weapon in the game.
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@zaz3L

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Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 11:55 am

@Heisenberg I can understand why you'd say Eden is intended to be one note, but if the supposed singularity brought him self-awareness, then wouldn't he develop, at the least, a baseline personality type? If that is the case I can't help but think he'd have to have a pathology. There would need to be a causation between the period where he became self-aware and the point where that made him an antagonist, otherwise he really wouldn't be self-aware in the first place, and that would imply he was deliberately programmed wrong. (Annotation) His alleged personality was formed though the study of US History, and after the Oil Rig Incident it thrust him into the position of "savior" with a superiority complex which spirals him into a Eugenics crusade. However, seeing as he himself is inorganic, and doesn't have genetics (which is where his extremely derivative paladin complex stems from) that doesn't really make any sense. Seeing that the Enclave had deliberately Weaponized FEV in years prior and had no qualms with using FEV affected people to achieve their ends (namely Horrigan), the ideology would conflict with his Enclave affiliation or the support he gained in the Enclave itself. Yes, Augustus Autumn is the primary antagonist, but if his motivation is yet another "kill to save" ideology, it's hardly outside the box either. I absolutely agree on the Institute front though. It was extraordinarily disappointing after the Zimmer-Harkness experience set the stage for something far more grandiose.

@Sirdanest I do agree about the lack of meaning behind ranking up in a faction, even in TES3, all it really did was open up services, many of which you wouldn't really need by the time you achieved that rank. I think mods will always be a relative perspective though in terms of enhancing vanilla content. What some see as expansive, others may see as wishful thinking that further cements the lack of detail in the original product.

@gavin gold I agree that faction overhauls have really been limited on the level of immersion they provide. I honestly think, when it comes to them, less is more. Attempting to rewrite the entirety of a faction quest line really only creates a different faction that happens to share the same name as the original.

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Last edited by @zaz3L on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clarification)
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Sirdanest

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 2:49 pm

In New Vegas, it was actually possible to convince to Legion turn around and go home. In fallout 1, you can convince the master to give up his entire plan and commit suicide. Even in fallout 3, with its comparatively simple plot and faction choices, there's still a way to convince Eden that he's wrong.

If even the seemingly relentless, violent Legion and the Master were actually pliable and open to speech, the institute probably should have had SOME way to talk to them and change their stance at least a little,especially once you're in charge. It's a fallout tradition. Unfortunately on the other hand it's also a fallout tradition that faction leadership often means very little.
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gavin gold

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PostSubject: Re: Fallout 3 gets no love.   Fallout 3 gets no love. - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 11:12 pm

@Sirdanest

Quote :
In New Vegas, it was actually possible to convince to Legion turn around and go home.

Which is something that makes no sense. The game is worse for that. I get that being able to peacefully resolve a conflict is a franchise tradition but the conditions in those three games are completely different. The only one who did it right was the original. FNV, for everything that it otherwise gets right, was abysmal in this.

The Master isn't some sort of mindless maniac. He's an example of ideology and purpose gone wrong. He has good intentions (create a better future for people) and a good cause (end strife and division), however evil can and often do come from those. He's so deep into his project that it has stunted his capacity to think rationally.

You don't convince him of anything. In fact, you can't. Trying to argue with him leads nowhere because he doesn't care for your arguments, no matter how charismatic or persuasive you are. You can only expose him to the fact that his project doesn't work. Only when he is forced to see his own failure, that his project will never come to fruition, and that all the atrocities he made in the name of progress were for nothing, then he realizes just how far gone he was and puts an end to the Unity.

Fallout 3 was an attempt to copy this, but Bethesda being Bethesda, they removed all nuance, complexity and meaning from it, so what you get is a "Please kill yourself. Aren't you tired of being evil?" option, which can work even when you're not particularly charismatic or persuasive, and leaves you wondering whether it was supposed to be a joke, or maybe Bethesda's way of showing just how poorly programmed Eden was.

In FNV, it's probably the worst thing about the game:

- First, every piece of information you get about him, the radio broadcasts, the conversations you can have with different NPCs (including members of the legion), even his own name (which in Latin means butcher), point to a completely different character. Someone completely fanatical, brutal and savage. Yet when you actually meet him, the guys at Obsidian (who seem to have an obsession to make every single villain a measured, well-spoken philosopher) give you someone that doesn't fit his description at all, likely just so that you can have the option to let him retreat.
- Second, unless Caesar is dead and he's now in control of the Legion, that's not a decision he would be able or willing to make (unless he's looking to get executed).
- Third, it doesn't even look like it's possible for them to retreat at all. By the time you have that conversation, not only has the main force been repelled from the dam but you've pushed all the way to their war camp and cornered the commander. By that point, retreat would just not be feasible.
- Fourth, it solves nothing. You don't negotiate peace or make the legion any less of a threat. All he says is he'll go get even more slaves and come back later (and in the meantime, very likely the skirmishes and slave raids will continue). Why in the world would you want that to happen? He's right there, just finish it.

Ultimately though, my point is, does that make the game better? Is it a good thing in your opinion that the guy who's been obsessed with a single objective for years turns on a dime just because you pass a speech check even when that doesn't even seem possible?

By the way, you could've still be given a peaceful option. Maybe leverage something the Legate wants to make him surrender peacefully and allow himself to be captured, rather than die in battle. In that case it would be important that it's not just him but also a good part of the legion as well (because what's the point of sparing him when you've already slaughtered all his guys). That would actually be a way to end or at least considerably diminish a threat.

So when it comes to the Institute, you absolutely should be allowed to steer it in the direction you want it to go once you take over. But they shouldn't just suddenly become best friends with the Railroad just because you say so. Factions need to have some personality. Otherwise what's the point of having factions at all?
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