@IIHawkerII Which is someone's opinion and why they think that, but way to completely ignore everything I said just to downrep me. I was being objective, just like you demanded should be done, but apparently that's not what you want. How am I not trying? I did exactly what you wanted. The only difference is that I don't agree with you.

I didn't downrep you before. You downvoted everyone else before I downvoted you so I'm not sure how that's an excuse considering it was after the fact.

( I didn't downrep your last post. Only the first one. )

And I'm not going to argue with you further, it was a mistake for me to even pop into this thread.
( I didn't ignore anything you said? I responded to each part then gave up when the counter points showed that we clearly did things differently in our respective playthroughs. And nothing I say will make you think anything else other than 'Fallout 4 is an inferior, insulting product in every way that matters', I figure it's best we stop responding to eachother. Don't you? )

@IIHawkerII
I think you misunderstand, man. I'm not comparing it to new vegas, the AI in nv is horrible, the anims are stiff and the enemies don't even react. I'm just holding Fallout 4 to the standard of better shooting games.

ahyuser001 wrote:

If you compare Fallout 4s gun play to unmodded Fallout 3 and New Vegas, it is vastly superior because Bethesda improved on their weapon animations so that it "looks" realistic. But just because they improved on this does not mean it has good gun play

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At what cost though? I follow that OP is looking at the gunplay aspect but FO4 was just less of a Roleplay game. To me the RP aspect is why I enjoy the franchise.

Kaliin wrote:

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At what cost though? I follow that OP is looking at the gunplay aspect but FO4 was just less of a Roleplay game. To me the RP aspect is why I enjoy the franchise.

It costed alot .

This off topic but just to answer the question, Fallout 4 sacrificed a lot of aspects mainly the following points that greatly affected roleplay which also affected unmodded replayability:

> The new dialogue options. It vastly limited the number of ways that you could interact with the people in the game as there are only 4 options available.

> The new perk system. It makes perks heavily dependent on a players SPECIAL values that it limits certain character builds. I would love to get the old skill system/or an improvement of it back.

> The factions. They are too black and white for my tastes and in some ways lacks humanity. They are also too inflexible which means there is only one way to get each faction's ending and after that there is nothing else to do except explore. You can create a different backstory/build from your original PT but you still get the same quests and ending each time.

To give credit to Fallout 4, it overhauled weapon/armor modding/crafting, introduced an interesting new system(settlement mode and power armor). It also improved some of its animations, mainly the weapon animations, although many aspects of gunplay still needs to be improved, and its NPC animations(they can now take cover and sit on a chair ).

@Wertologist Howdy, and it was a fully automatic rifle, its been a minute for me since I last played fallout NV.  But it was probably closer to 3 magazines and different rounds affect the wear of the rifle but it was over done in NV, they shot for a gimic and it felt all kinds of wrong...The degradation of weapons was horrible, while deployed in the desert I put far more rounds through my weapons, and I had sandstorms, crawled and swam through small creeks and streams... so weapons dont die that badly or quickly especially with alittle preventative maintenance, and the changing of parts or the stuff NV has you do isnt preventative maintenance where you just cannibalize a weapon for parts.. whats more I rather not deal with that in the game and would rather have it be understood that when I rest in the game that I take care of my weapons and gear as that is when I realistically do it anyway.

595 rounds through the varmit rifle killed it, that still seems kinda bad, and then it breaks entirely, especially when the standard full combat load is say 7 magazines of 30 rounds (210 rounds) which you can easily go through in a day of just training either at a shoot house or a range.  We would do that and break for chow come back clean and re-train, but before chow we would each have used almost 1,000 rounds and the weapon systems still worked fine.  

Now I understand its a game, and people want different parts of reality in their game, some like excessive recoil, some like to actually do maintenance on their weapons in game (or what they believe to be maintenance). Fallouts abstract damage system and NV' degradation system that only affects the player... while the enemy fires infinitely and nothing degrades.  Its all in what we want and are willing to accept.  As you stated maintaining and keeping some weapons in good condition was what you wanted for selling purposes, and affected how you fought?  I am just saying that the weapons degrade far to fast for it to be noticeably unrealistic in any real fashion and detracted from the original posters concept of better gunplay in NV as opposed to 4.  If guns behaved that way in real life I would chuck spears and throw knives on every mission/patrol/ deployment I am sent on.  But, what I am posting is just my 2cents on the subject.

@SgtSpectre Here is the durability of all automatic rifles:

Automatic Rifle: The automatic rifle can fire a total of about 995 standard rounds, the equivalent of 50 reloads

Assault Carbine: The assault carbine can fire a total of about 3,745 standard rounds, the equivalent of 157 reloads

Light Machine Gun: The light machine gun can fire a total of about 3995 standard rounds, the equivalent of 45 reloads

Bozar: Bozar can fire a total of about 3995 standard rounds, the equivalent of 134 reloads

You must have been using a gun that was near the breaking point if it broke after 3 full mags. There is no way it could have been full condition and break with only 3. Even with that degradation trait and surplus ammo. It simply does not degrade that fast. The only way it could is if you were using a modded weapon that had an extremely low condition limit and/or used a mod to make weapons degrade faster.

Yes, some ammo does make the weapon degrade faster, but that's pretty much only surplus, special, +P, and Hand Load. Those ammos really aren't that harmful to the gun either.

I never said it was a realistic feature so you don't need to argue on that. If your biggest complaint on realism is how fast the guns degrade and isn't how many shots you can take to the face then I think you should get your priorities in order. I just pointed out that what you said was simply impossible in the vanilla game and didn't make sense. The degradation really isn't bad at all. Even with that trait and surplus ammo. You still have a good amount of shots before it actually becomes a problem.

Yes and Morrowind has better combat than Skyrim, because it requires a dice roll and Skyrim doesn’t. All the more fluid animations and fast paced combat in Skyrim just make the combat WORSE. I’d much rather the dice roll combat with stiff animations than Skyrim’s combat because the AI is bad lmao.

Next thread: New Vegas has better visuals than Fallout 4, water is not wet and the Earth is flat.

fallout games don't have good gunplay for the same reason that the elder scrolls never has "good" melee combat. It's just never been a "strong" focus for Bethesda in my opinion. it's also difficult to make a combat system that works great when you have SOOO many weapons and character builds. The combat is always "functional" but never anything special. the rest of the game is so good that it makes up for it.

what made fallout 4 rewarding for me, and prob why a lot of people praise its gunplay, was the modding and crafting of weapons. That first time you took your badass weapon out for a spin after scrounging for adhesive, duct tape...etc felt awesome, and so you enjoyed the gunplay more.

I think when they say improved gunplay, they means it feels a lot smoother than 3 and New Vegas and more modifications. I personally think Fallout 4's problems is that Bethesda focus on the flaws that the previous games have but then ignored what the previous games did great at.