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 So who would win?

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Who would win, the Brotherhood of Steel (Midwest) or the NCR
NCR
So who would win? - Page 2 I_vote_lcap69%So who would win? - Page 2 I_vote_rcap
 69% [ 20 ]
Brotherhood of Steel (MIdwest)
So who would win? - Page 2 I_vote_lcap31%So who would win? - Page 2 I_vote_rcap
 31% [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 29
 

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Sierran

Sierran

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 11:43 pm

Personally, I see this like how the German Army saw the early stages of WW2, and how they planned for it. The German's plan was a series of quick, knock-out blows designed to get the major Allied powers out of the war as quickly as possible, as Germany hadn't the resources for a long war, whereas the Allies with their far reaching imperial holdings, did.

What do I mean by this?, I mean the BoS has both a technological advantage and the initial shock and awe advantage. They would be able to surge through NCR territory, capturing towns, military installations and destroying the few unprepared units they'd come across with relative ease and low casualties. However, while this sounds like a BoS god-stomp, they would *have* to keep this up, or else they'd eventually lose the war. The NCR would be like the Allies in WW2, unprepared and easy pickings at the outset of hostilities, while the BoS would be the Axis, technologically superior and using better shock doctrine. Once the NCR gets it's act together, the war will bog down at best or slowly start reversing in the NCR's favour at worst for the BoS, much like WW2, with the weight of NCR bullets, bodies and pulse grenades forcing the Brotherhood back. I'd also like to point out that the NCR doesn't discriminate, at least when it comes to military service, between mutants and sexes, too.

Tl;dr - The NCR takes massive losses at the outset in territory and men, but should it hold on enough to pull together it's strength, the Brotherhood will be forced to fight a losing retreat back to their own territory. The war will be costly, and the NCR, depending on it's losses, might even collapse internally after the BoS is driven out. But since the NCR in my eyes wins the fighting bit and post-war strife isn't the scope of the question, I'd give them the victory.





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IRORIEH

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 12:19 am

NCR.

Midwestern BoS, based on what little has been established in the lore, is in pretty poor shape. The East Coast chapter barely found any evidence of their survival, meaning they are likely quite small or weak, and the Legion has reportedly captured Brotherhood scribes out east, which mean they have fought, and on several occasions, defeated the Brotherhood of Steel in the east, likely the Midwest chapter since they're the only ones in the area. The most likely canon ending of tactics would be the calculator destroyed and the BoS stranded in the wastes. Most of they're tech will be pretty broken down at this point due to a mix of wear and tear and lack of resources, not to mention many of their members are tribals who likely lack the classic Brotherhood training. Irregardless of their recruiting, this force is still dwarfed by the NCR.

Brotherhood still has tech on their side to a degree, but not to the same degree as the west coast chapters, who had the comfort of bunkers and massive supply stockpiles. Midwest BoS, going off the calculator is destroyed ending, lack those resources, and have suffered heavy losses form raiders, and later Caesar's Legion.

In my mind, NCR stomps quite easily. They just need to overwhelm them with numbers, which they have. Midwest chapter isn't strong enough to face the NCR army proper, their best bet would be guerrilla tactics, but even then, the NCR rangers would even the odds in non-conventional combat. NCR takes this.

I think it's interesting to note that the Courier when convincing Lanius not to invade Vegas, points out why no force can take the west. The west is dependant on the NCR's supply lines. All trade caravans are integrally tied to the state through congress, and all towns rely on them. NCR lacks self sufficient towns and cities, so any army advancing into NCR territory would not be able to sustain themselves in the long run because the NCR is so vast and there is no single point where they could go to in order to resupply their whole army. The NCR survives soley because all of the towns within are dependant upon the infrastructure of the NCR. A foreign force would be cut off from that infrastructure, and would quickly run low on resources. Food, water, munitions, all come from three very different parts of the NCR. Water from the caravans in the Hub, munitions from the Gun Runners in the Boneyard, food from the north in Shady... That's a vast expanse of territory to travel in order to properly plunder each place, and at each location they'd need to expand their resources in a long, drawn out battle. Taking the NCR, for a post war nation like the Brotherhood, that lacks any infrastructure (no Brotherhood chapter grows it's own food for example), that deep in foreign territory, means certain defeat. It's something to consider.

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ahyuser001

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 3:13 pm

@Sirdanest

What I like about FNV is that the Courier/Main Protagonist isn't necessarily immortal. Merely super skilled and lucky which means this person can be killed. In Fallout: Tactics, there was also a hero called the Warrior who in the end of the game became the Calculator and gained control of Vault 0.

So I think if there would be a battle of heroes, it would be fairly even as its a battle between a super skilled Courier vs a Vault with access to a lot of robots.

The War would be instigated by the NCR because the BOS x NCR War has not ended yet and its soldiers assumed that the BOS(Midwest) is an enemy and attacked them.

Both factions would have a reason to fight because the NCR still has some bad blood with the BOS and the BOS was attacked and retaliated in self-defense.

@Wolfclaw114

It would not be a stretch to say that because the BOS(Midwest) was able to reprogram a Vault 0 robot.

Vault 0 tech is also fairly reliable as they were able to almost defeat the BOS(Midwest) during the events of Fallout: Tactics.

Also all robots under Vault 0s control were deactivated when the Calculator was defeated so the question is can someone from the NCR be capable of hacking into the network of an AI augmented by human brains?

@Sierran

I like this analysis however I view the BOS(Midwest) as post war Soviet Russia having both technology captured from the Germans and the ability quickly mass produce stuff.

The reason why I do not see the BOS(Midwest) as Germany is because while they had access to top of the line equipment, they were not able to mass produce it as fast because everything was over engineered which is a great contrast to what the Calculator what able to do as it was almost able to wipe out all humans(in the midwest at least) by pumping out a lot of robots quickly.

In a way it would be a US x Soviet battle if they were engaged in an actual war with no sea dividing them.

@IRORIEH

This is the reason why I chose to use the Good Ending of Fallout Tactics as the other endings would make the BOS(Midwest) either too weak as a faction or lose their very diverse army(Barnaky Ending) because they wiped out all mutants. It would be a one sided match.

At least with the good ending the BOS(Midwest) would stand a chance as this was the BOS attempt to create a Utopia where all people regardless of race is united under their strict rule.

Also in this ending, they would have the technology and the number to battle a big faction such as the NCR.

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gakusangi

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 23, 2020 7:00 pm

NCR. It doesn't matter how well equipped the Brotherhood are, they don't have the numbers. If they were pinned down with no option for retreat, they'd run out of resources before the NCR ran out of bodies to throw at them.
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TheLegendWhoFell

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 23, 2020 10:06 pm

Looking at what happened at Helios One is a good way to gain an answer. The Brotherhood under the influence of a strong leader is a force to be reckoned with but without that, even with all the advanced training and gear, they are still susceptible to losing. They are not actively recruiting so If the NCR went to war with them, it could be a problem for the NCR also. The amount of damage The Brotherhood would do would be massive also but with the amount of soldiers the NCR has available, it pains me to say that an outcome with The Brotherhood winning isn't of great chances.

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Alonewanderercalledfox

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PostSubject: BOS   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 16, 2020 6:52 pm

I personally believe the Brotherhood of Steel would win. They have a huge arsenal of weapons. Genuinely they could just find a way to activate ARCHIMIDES II and screw over the NCR.
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Sirdanest

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 16, 2020 8:15 pm

The Mojave brotherhood probably literally has the population that we see. There was no "invisible" population in reserve (and not a single little child.) The NCR on the other hand has a gigantic population, far, far beyond what we see.
It's basically a bunker vs a nation of 700,000 people. No wonder they lost at Helios, energy weapons and power armor aren't that good. A bunker just can't stand against a nation, and lasers don't change that.
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blahblahblah

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 17, 2020 3:19 am

The NCR could pull the same tactic as flooding their resources at the enemy and it's likely they will win.
But the Midwest BOS is an amped version of the BOS - if they were at the helios one battle, Elijah wouldve got what he wanted.

I think the NCR army will collapse and the citizens back home will be pissed at the number of soliders wasted (Their army isn't infinite - unless they have a shit ton of more NCR Vet Rangers, I find it hard to believe they can overpower BoS training and tech) . If the BoS wont advance, the NCR just needs to back off and theyll survive. Could the Midwest BoS conquer the NCR? eventually, if they play it right

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Sirdanest

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 17, 2020 12:03 pm

Caesar's Legion was able to best the midwest BOS. He had nothing but scorn for them: "Some of them don't even know who their founder is!"
Whatever ending they got in tactics, it likely wasn't an empowering one, or didn't last.
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Emperor Slyther

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 17, 2020 1:10 pm

If the Brotherhood of Steel is less arrogant and less discriminating towards ghouls and others, that could be a potential gamechanger in their favor. Helios One may be a good start in search of superweapons such as ARCHIMEDES II or so they put it. Though I question the uses of ARCHIMEDES II. In a Gears of War related note, I knew the Hammer of Dawn works on several satellite stations and only works in the day. So if the BoS are hoping to use ARCHIMEDES II against the NCR, the only downside of that is one, it's nighttime, and second, I have to ask how many satellites are in orbit that will help the BoS accomplish this goal. But it yet remains in question if the NCR has any methods of stable space travel, such as space vertibirds or whatnot, and if they have missiles of nuclear capacity, they would most certainly consider it in order to take down one satellite...

And it may be very possible to fend off an army of 700,000 slightly experienced cowards who are more of the imperialist type than what could be said for the minor opposition. BoS has superior technology? Yes, sure! Of course! But one thing the BoS could also muster is the tactics of guerilla warfare. There's no guarantee a bunker vs. a nation of ignorant occult followers believing an imaginary superhero like Kimball will save everyone, the odds of the opposition winning against the majority are very slim...

But this war between the BoS and the NCR comes at a cost for both sides. With the BoS being forced into measures of tactical retreat and whatnot, this has also weakened and strained the NCR's presence in the mojave. Caesar's Legion will only double the pressure the NCR faces, which has led both forces into a stalemate. The NCR may have won their dispute against the BoS, but at the cost of potentially losing the next fight with an already equal-standing foe. Courier players are usually very mixed apples, each with their own morality compass, so who is to win without the said courier's aid, who is to say? But I wouldn't call the NCR saints in all of this either...

In any war, it's almost a seemingly endless game of world conquest, and it's key players are tyrants, dictators, fascists, and opportunists of all shades. All of them will make empty promises to their 'people', who are actually slaves, or rather 'cattle'. Who wins the war in the end? Well, it's the faction/nation/group with the most resources, the most wealth and potentially, the most experienced...

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IIHawkerII

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 17, 2020 8:15 pm

This is the Midwestern Brotherhood from Tactics that we're talking about, not the rinky-dink Mojave Chapter.

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyTue Mar 17, 2020 9:33 pm

Hmm. I seem to have misread the title then. Or does it appear anywhere on OP's post that there were any mentions about Fallout Tactics, because I looked at it again, and I haven't seen such mentions. But that's just my honest take on it all.

Edit: Or wait, I just realized this is the 2nd page of posts. I've been reading the wrong side. I haven't played Fallout Tactics, so don't mind me. Continue.

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roflcopter117

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PostSubject: Re: So who would win?   So who would win? - Page 2 EmptyMon May 04, 2020 9:28 am

Well if we are going off of Bethesda canon, they established that the ending resulting in the mid-west BOS falling on hard times as the canon ending through dialogue in Fallout 3. So that would be an important factor in a situation like this.
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