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 Much Ado About Legion

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Bafonet

Bafonet

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PostSubject: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyTue Dec 01, 2020 1:15 pm

There's a thing I've noticed about story mods for New Vegas, is that almost all of them seem kind of obsessed in expressing how much they hate Legion, how bad Legion is, how much Legion are dicks, how Legion Legion Legion Legion THAT BLOODY UNCLEHUGGING LEGION AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH#$(*#@@#$@#$ (Even if a mod doesn't have anything Legion related, just a topic for a character to say something about Legion, the character, who might be a murderious assassin/raider/ droid molester gonna start it with "Oh, those dicks...I MEAN, I KILLED MY MAMA, BUT LEGION, BLEH!!!".

I find it quite interesting and a peculiar crowd "rule" to obesrve, because, while definitely being far from good guys from the common morals point of view, they are far from being one-dimensional antagonists also, and in Obsidian's portrayal of them in the game, you can find that quite a few characters been able to align or at very least, feel for them with a respect/neutral position. Even if you're completely against their goals/ ideas, I think it's easy to at least nod to the fact that they are what they are without any compromises or hiding about it, in contrast to NCR, who are a "sweet on the outside, rotten to the core" old world mistake of a country. And that's actually what you see in the game itself.

Yet modders... They make Enclave (One of the most one-dimensional, destroy-the-world kind of villains) look good, Institute, Raiders... Legion, FUCK THOSE DICKS!

So here are two questions. Why, do you think, it is so that Legion became such a scapegoat for all the hatred that modders can imagine and pour in their creations?
And can you recommend some good story mods that actually go against such a pop-way and offer Legion more in line with the vanilla, complicated antagonist/ possible ally approach?

Will be curious to hear your thoughts on that.
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dragbody

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyTue Dec 01, 2020 3:01 pm

First question - I think the Legion is a scapegoat for villainy because gamers are motivated by a clear moral compass and righteous indignation. It's confusing and complicated to play if you have to become philosophically involved in character dialogue to know whether or not sniping a certain faction should make you feel like a hero or not. The legion uses slave labor and is openly misogynistic... boom. Instant antagonists. After all, who wants to perform ethical gymnastics to portray women-hating slavers as anything other than villains?

Second question - Legion quests expanded is really cool, but it doesn't do much in the way of trying to portray the Legion in a more savory light. To my knowledge, no one has really tried that.
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Judge Redd

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyTue Dec 01, 2020 10:54 pm

@dragbody wrote:
First question - I think the Legion is a scapegoat for villainy because gamers are motivated by a clear moral compass and righteous indignation. It's confusing and complicated to play if you have to become philosophically involved in character dialogue to know whether or not sniping a certain faction should make you feel like a hero or not. The legion uses slave labor and is openly misogynistic... boom. Instant antagonists. After all, who wants to perform ethical gymnastics to portray women-hating slavers as anything other than villains?

Second question - Legion quests expanded is really cool, but it doesn't do much in the way of trying to portray the Legion in a more savory light. To my knowledge, no one has really tried that.

To my knowledge much the same. And it would be pretty a daunting task to portray the legion in a positive light now. Given the amount of mods that portray them as evil.
Honestly I think if you had to create a mod where the legion are shown to be in a bit more of a grey area, you would need a bigger threat. Like the courier gets in a plane crash or something and we find ourselves in a territory full of murderous savage tribes and people who just want order no matter the cost. This is a virtual deadzone for most other factions because of how savage the tribals are and evil their actions. Then you are saved by a legionaire who explains that there is a group of legionaires called the spartan group (i know real cliche), who are out in these lands trying to bring order back. They are a special forces group and share their stories of the legion and how it saved each one of them.
I dont know. But i do agree that they need a few legion related quests.
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Bafonet

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyWed Dec 02, 2020 2:39 am

@dragbody wrote:
First question - I think the Legion is a scapegoat for villainy because gamers are motivated by a clear moral compass and righteous indignation. It's confusing and complicated to play if you have to become philosophically involved in character dialogue to know whether or not sniping a certain faction should make you feel like a hero or not. The legion uses slave labor and is openly misogynistic... boom. Instant antagonists. After all, who wants to perform ethical gymnastics to portray women-hating slavers as anything other than villains?

Second question - Legion quests expanded is really cool, but it doesn't do much in the way of trying to portray the Legion in a more savory light. To my knowledge, no one has really tried that.

I see that, but what I was thinking about how Legion became the most scapegoatiest scapegoat, so to say, in all Fallout game mods. Like you can see mods in which Enclave are portrayed as "At least they charismatic. America FUCK YEAH!" or Institute "Aren't really that evil at all, just confused." And when other Fallout games modders looking for a threat, it's not as often their game's "main villains". It can be anyone, Supermutants, raiders, random mad scientists, ghouls.
New Vegas --- Legion's presence is "the threat" absolutely dominating.
And the one-sideness of it is what makes me rise my eyebrow the most. Take such guys as th3overseer or Someguy. Someguy even said he wanted to do what I'm talking about in Russel, and that's one thing he regrets cutting out from it the most. But then in later mods, he continued the trend of putting Legion in huge "crazy bad guy" roles whenever they appeared (The length of atrocities they went to in his mods, that requires imagination). Then th3overseer, the guy in whose mods NCR are looking like a bunch of corrupted and rotten to the core child molesters, rapists, cultists and murderers and what not. And yet they are still joinable, and you do work for them and "Not all NCR are bad, it's just... BUT LOOK AT THEM LEGION GUYS, WHAT A MONSTERS, AMIRITE?". Even the most despicable characters in his mods, like companions who are literal Fiends, say "At least I'm not Legion."

So that's what fascinates me. Not specifically them being easy as bad guys, which is understandable. But how overwhelmingly they are picked on as the evil's evil to the point of absurd, even when right next to them are a clear monsters. Like if that'ss an unnatural hatred to them that bliinds everything else, you know? Like fo example, their slavery, they aren't ordinary slavers who does it for profit or because of some racist ideas. Basically most of their society starts out as slaves and climbs up the ladder, and everyone got a chance to become the main "citizens" with time. Yet people hate them the same way they would hate some black farm breeder from the deep South of 19th century, who sleeps on skins of his slaves and takes as his honor to rape every newborn.
There's plenty of opportunity and room for storytellers to do with them something else, but they always go for the worst, againt all odds.



And as for mods, I can actually myself think of three. First one we all know, New California, which has a woman as the main agent of the Legion, and shows that they are not some crazy "women, ewww!" zealots and can be quite pragmatic when they see a potential in someone (I remember how quite a few people were basically offended that Legion had a woman because Legion "would never do that", never mind that Caesar himself, with some resolve, would hire female Courier as his second-in-command, and put their face on the coin in case of you winning thte battle of Hoover Dam, an honor none but himself and a couple of the Legion creators ever had).

Second is called New Vegas Stories https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/66505 , which amongst others, have a little, interesting quest you can do for the Legion (While not doing something explicitly different with Legion itself, it at least shows them as characters that don't spend whole day crucifying people and laughing at whipped slaves. In it, they actually show concern for the dead bodies of NCR soldiers they killed been looted, since they find it dishonorable. And guess what, again, I saw comments on that mod's page people complaining about "Why is there a Legion quest in here, I'm playing a good character, how can I do a Legion quest, author lied that there are six quests in it, it's only five if you any kind of a decent person).

Third one is called Sympathy for the Devil, https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/65609 And it concerns the Courier being hired by a stranded Legion platoon to help them fight off an unknown disease and some obsessed with human-hating ghoul horde. This mod would basically be what I'm talking about, it has lots of interesting and complicated characters with layers for what they do, if not for the fact that, like most of Americanweirdos mods, it's basically a self-parody (Think Fallout New Vegas as Evil Dead 1, and this mod as Ash vs Evil Dead).
So that's the mods I feel this game really missing out on, something with same level of involvement, but without characters who are aware they are " a bunch of pixels in a computer game", and stuff like that. And I feel like it's right in the air, you can do thing like show territories under Legion control (Raul and that merchant in the Fort and a couple of other characters says that basically what we are witnessing in the Mojave is a war face of the Legion, and it's far about crosses on every corner when it comes to places they rule, not fight over), they acceptance of homosexuality (Example: a quest in which you meet a Legion character who used to be an NCR soldier. He was about to be killed by his brothers-in-arms after they found out he coul be "Looking at them in the showers", and he was saved by a Legion scouting party. And he basically found his true love in the Legion. And he kind of hates and disagrees with most of the things Legion does, but he just found that this hell, is the most suitable hell he can find for himself), the effectiveness of their totalitarian control on law and order even if coming with extreme sacrifices of freedom some would feel choked with, the weird sense of fraternity and a "Stockholm Syndrome family" that tribals whose tribes were forced into Legion experience, etc. It's all about showin the different angles. It doesn't mean that you agree with your enemy, it just means that you're smart enough to see they are more than just something you can shoot at coz you want to shoot something.

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Bafonet

Bafonet

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyWed Dec 02, 2020 2:42 am

@Judge Redd wrote:


Like the courier gets in a plane crash or something and we find ourselves in a territory full of murderous savage tribes and people who just want order no matter the cost. This is a virtual deadzone for most other factions because of how savage the tribals are and evil their actions. Then you are saved by a legionaire who explains that there is a group of legionaires called the spartan group (i know real cliche), who are out in these lands trying to bring order back. They are a special forces group and share their stories of the legion and how it saved each one of them.
I dont know. But i do agree that they need a few legion related quests.

This quest mod that I've mentioned in my previous reply, Sympathy for the Devil, is very similiar to your concept, only as I've mentioned it's much more comical in its skin, and has ghouls instead of savages https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/65609

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th3overseer

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptySun Dec 13, 2020 5:53 pm

That's not an entirely fair assessment of my mods. I've made three companions. Of them, one, Todd, is an avid chem-user and Vegas resident. The Legion kills chem-users and are poised as an invading army coming to conquer his home. So he despises them. He hates the NCR for trying to conquer the Mojave too, but the NCR won't nail him to a cross for getting stoned, so why wouldn't he see the Legion as the worst possible outcome?

The second, Eliza, is from Utah, a state that the Legion is in the process of conquering, so she already has a low opinion of them. Moreover, Eliza is all about personal freedoms, while Caesar himself will freely admit that he doesn't give one iota of a shit about personal freedom; as far as he's concerned, a person is only valuable in the context of what utility they serve for their state. And Eliza is a fan of intellectualism as a philosophy, while the Legion is textbook anti-intellectualism. They basically embody everything that offends her on a moral, personal, and philosophical level.

The third companion, Charlie... Doesn't really object to them. She prefers they don't take power, because she's a sterile woman that works as a professional assassin, so she would have no place in their territory. Combine that with the fact that she's severely traumatized from a lifetime of rape and slavery, she would have every reason to despise the Legion. But she doesn't.

Other than the companions, you say I make the Legion villains in my mods, instead of more deserving targets. When? Who? I have one Legionary target in Headhunting... Alongside multiple NCR targets.

The North Road? There are three primary antagonists there. Adam Burke is from the NCR, Tex Bradshaw is just some nobody Slaver from Texas, and Hader is an ex-Legionary.

The Initiation? There are some hostile unnamed Legionaries in the final dungeon, but the antagonist is not a member of the Legion. He's a lunatic with a vendetta against the Great Khans. If you read into the flavor notes, the Legion find the antagonist to be a repulsive idiot, and plan to kill him themselves.

In Eliza? Again, there's one Legionary target, but he's primarily marked for death for being a defector from the NCR. Otherwise, most of the antagonists are either Mojave residents, or rogue NCR citizens.

Depths of Depravity? The Legion doesn't appear at all.

And you're looking it from a meta-perspective. We, the audience, can read all Caesar's dialogue, can weigh the ethics of each and every Legion action compared to ever NCR action, write giant forum posts about why "actually, an anti-intellectualist army of genocidal rapist slavers would clearly be humanity's best hope" all day. We can create and install mods that make the Legion a gang of friendly dudes that society just doesn't understand... Because we're the audience. Put yourself in the position of some regular dude that just lives in New Vegas.

95% of the characters I write were born outside of Legion territory. They live in nations that the Legion threatens. They were raised to place value in ethical behavior. They haven't met Caesar, so they've never gotten any highbrow explanations and justifications for the Legion's brutal actions. There's not much moral wiggle room from their perspective. To them, they see an army of slave-trading genocidal rapists that hate intellectualism, hate women, and hate freedom, on the march to conquer and destroy the Mojave, the only home most of these characters have ever known.

If I ever were to write a mod that takes place in Legion territory, I would write characters with a more positive opinion on the Legion.

(I'm inclined to agree about the Enclave, though. With the singular exception of the Remnants, the Enclave have been portrayed as cartoonishly evil mustache-twirlers in every single appearance they've ever made in the series. I have absolutely no clue why so many people act like they're actually well-intentioned cool dudes that just want to save good ol' America.)

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Bafonet

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyMon Dec 14, 2020 8:12 pm

@th3overseer wrote:
That's not an entirely fair assessment of my mods. I've made three companions....

I think you yourself misunderstood what I was saying about your mods (And other mods).
I never said Legion is the main baddie in your mods, I've said even when Legion is not the main baddie,  and just there in the background (like in your mods), it's still gets vilified and hated like if ttere weren't murderning and child raping NCR right next to it. It's like say, in a metaphorical sense, there are two guys, one Legion, one NCR, NCR is main bad guy, Legion is just kind of  being there, and you're given a gun saying, you gotta shoot both. No choice, can't spare one, gotta shoot both. So you shoot Legion first, NCR second. You get what I mean?

What you say about your three companion characters, makes sense, however, it' again a sort of a convinient coincidence that they all turn out to have the reasons to hate Legion, no matter what. It could have went different way. For example, given the way the character of Todd is, he might as well not give a fuck about Legion, or even be silly enough to think he can somehow "impress the big guys and get the dance" (Remember, how Fiends were trying to impress Caesar in one of the endings (And lost, which left him "unimpressed"). Eliza can be intellectual, but how many "intellectuals" out there who feel sympathy for Stalinist or Mao-like states (Which are actually worse than what Legion offers)?
And Charlie, while not really objecting them, she still ends up having to say "Yeah, tthey still shit though." Why? Why can't she be more like "pays a pay". She supposed to be smart. She supposed to realize that Legion isn'tt just an orc army and everything going to be Mordor, that Caesar exactly wants New Vegas to become a point of his synthesis between NCR and Legion, to form something in between, which will require services of someone like her (Take Empire from Star Wars, for example. A totalitarian regime, but have quite a use for assassins and bounty hunters).
Yet all three of those, coincidently, lean for the specifc of the coin. Different interpretations of it, yes, but same side all the same. When I play a vanilla, I am left with opportunity to presume Legion is an option. If the game was made solely of your mods, or say, Someguy mods, then I would not for a second consider Legion an option, unless if I wanna play "Mwahahahha, I'm evil, mwhahahahah".

And if you going to talk about meta-perspective, and ground perspective, then I have to point out to you this: your characters actually looking on this ground level from about two hundred years before the war kind of perspective. Intellectualism? Personal freedom? Human trafficking, child molestation, Racism, sexism, whatever else ism? It's a much harsher world right now (I mean, in that timeline) for it to be the real issues everyone is concerned about to the extent they are concerned in your mods. It's not like people don't like freedom or other things, but they don't look at it from modern, "spoiled" perspective (Your mods in general are very modernizing, in a sense, with the way tthey go with the lore, with all those secret agencies, hackers, political intrigues in NCR that feels like NCR at least fifty years from now if it continued rapidly evolve and develop, not stagnate). And those who do look for "higher purposes" are rare. Arcade is an exception, not a rule, and he has a very specific set of circumstances in his life that allowed him to grow up into such a ideological idealist (For which he pays a lot in every ending, including those he wanted for Vegas, which jusst shows how "out of  place" such characters are in this world).
I again would like to propose the vanilla look on Legion, as an example. Most of the character are not downright hostile and talking about personal freedoms and such when they are talking about Legion. They doubt, they consider, they fear, etc. They aren't standing against it ideologically, most of them, since we talking about ground perspective. Mick and Ralph fear it'd be bad for business. Farmers are afraid they crops will be taken. Etc.
And then there are guys like Raul. Good guy, wise guy, interesting guy. And he's not against it. Even though logically, going with your perspective he should be like "What the fuck is this about Legion and safe fucking roads?".

You have to understand that I never said you wrote bad stories, or other modders did (I mean, you seen my other comments, I said I love your mods). I was just pointing out the "Much Ado About Legion" theme in most of them, which is kind of subconsciously shared, and was wondering Why. I would not probably wonder about it if there weren't any other choice but them for it, but as I've said from the beginning, Legion is like Trump in Fallout franchise in fan's interpretation of it. No matter if there' Hitler or Putin or Gengis Khan, Trump still gets the spot to "shine." And that seem to be counter-intuitive because, out of all Fallout antagonists, Legion was given the most developed treatment to have them as something more complicated than "Fuck Trump." Yet even "Love Trump", which is quite present in reality, in this case is missing.
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th3overseer

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyTue Dec 15, 2020 5:54 am

Caesar himself is the only member of the Legion to espouse highbrow sociopolitical philosophies to justify why the Legion act like animals. Well and good for players, who can actually meet him and probe him for info and appreciate his excellent writing. The people of the Mojave and NCR, though, don't get to meet Caesar. They meet the foot soldiers that say: "Degenerates like you belong on a cross" as a hello. They hear news reports about: "The peaceful, neutral territory of Nipton has been raided by the Legion. Some residents were taken as slaves, the rest were brutally executed." and they don't get to meet Vulpes Inculta explaining "Well acktshually, Nipton is evil and they deserved it." I just can't see how that would illicit anything but contemptuous terror from the people living in the land the Legion wants to conquer.

Charlie has no objections to the morality of the Legion. She openly states she'd be totally comfortable taking contracts from the Legion, if they ever offered. But considering that I run into an infinitely replenishing number of Legion Assassins in the vanilla game, and every single one of them is a dude that was raised in the Legion culture, I take that to mean that they wouldn't be particularly interested in paying some independent assassin in the Mojave to do their job for them. Caesar (potentially) hiring the Courier is very odd, and pretty much every Legionary you speak to if you work with them is baffled that and outside agent is being given these important Legion tasks.

I'm not writing characters that object to the Legion based on modern values like racism or what have you. They live in a setting where being a slaver is a totally valid and lucrative career choice, and where the Legion openly espouse how "Women are physically and intellectually inferior to men. Their role is to bear children and ensure the survival of our species." If I was just a regular farm dude, living in some shantytown in the Mojave, those guys would scare the shit out of me. I mean, people living in a totally lawless, decentralized state with no infrastructure, like the Capitol Wasteland, despise slavers just for the threat they pose. And the Mojave is miles ahead of the Capitol when it comes to education and infrastructure. (Mostly through a combination of Mr. House trying to shape New Vegas in the image of the old world, and the Followers settling in from out of the NCR.)

Why would I write Raul as staunchly anti-Legion? He lived in Arizona when it was a raider paradise, and was personally victimized by those raiders. Then the Legion sweeps in and annihilates all the raiders in the state. I'd expect someone in his circumstance to have a less-negative outlook on them. "These guys do horrible things to the people that I personally despise! Maybe they aren't so bad!" is precisely the reasoning we see in modern-day people that cheerfully support totalitarian regimes.

Like I said in my first post: If I was writing characters that had experienced benefits to the Legion existing, you'd see more pro-Legion sentiment in my mods. But I'm primarily writing characters from the Mojave and the NCR, and for the life of me, I just can't figure any reason that any of those dudes would have a positive view of the looming, dogmatic slaver army.

(I didn't take your post to be a screed against my content. I like discourse about character motivations and that sort of thing.)

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Bafonet

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyThu Dec 17, 2020 1:21 am

@th3overseer wrote:
Caesar himself is the only member of the Legion to espouse highbrow sociopolitical philosophies to justify why the Legion act like animals...

Okay, here's the question. Would you say you feel like the content, perspective and overall feel of the narrative you provide in your mods differ much from the Obsidian's one, and if you do, then why is it is so, if you feel like you're grabbing the correct, objective look and implementation of Legion?
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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyThu Dec 17, 2020 7:06 am

I never claimed I had some infallible, objective perspective on the Legion. I just try to write characters that behave consistently and logically within their setting, and to me, that means a majority of them have a dim view of the army of totalitarian luddite slavers preparing to conquer their homeland.

No, I think the my mods are thematically and stylistically different than the base game. Obsidian's narratives are, for the most part, centered around shaping the future of the Mojave. My mods are much smaller-scale, focusing primarily on individual characters and factions, and the consequences of their choices in the setting.

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Bafonet

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptySat Dec 19, 2020 8:51 pm

@th3overseer wrote:
I never claimed I had some infallible, objective perspective on the Legion. I just try to write characters that behave consistently and logically within their setting, and to me, that means a majority of them have a dim view of the army of totalitarian luddite slavers preparing to conquer their homeland.

No, I think the my mods are thematically and stylistically different than the base game. Obsidian's narratives are, for the most part, centered around shaping the future of the Mojave. My mods are much smaller-scale, focusing primarily on individual characters and factions, and the consequences of their choices in the setting.

Then I don't dig how you can feel that way, if your characters are not consistent and logical withing the setting given to them, I don't understand how can't you see that your characters, the way they talk, behave, the events surrounding them and their narratives are so different from the actual setting they are in, if compare it to vanilla, if putting them next to narratives of the vanilla, and it has nothing to do with small-scale/large-scale. You don't shape the fate of the Mojave anywhere but the main quest, which is like, something of 30 percent of the story you can encounter in the game.

As an exampe, he things you say abou Raul is totally Interpretation. At no point in the game he expresses what you think about him, and doesn't give hints for that. It's just you coming up with this motivation for him, in spite of what his character says and acts like in the game.
Hmm, and now that I'm writing it I guess I get it now why you feel that way, you just came up with a certain way you explain the vanilla in your head, in spite off how vanilla setting is. And technically, I get it. It's like, someone gets mugged and later becomes a detective. And you can argue that it was like Batman thing, or it was just that he wanted to be a detective. And even if a person says that he didn' t got inspired to fight crime or something by that little event, you just go "Well, I know that deep inside, this is really the reason." Which changes the whole perception, while leaving the outside seemingly the same.

And another point I'd like to argue is how Literally people are taking the game's limitations as an actual fact of the in-game world. Like people look at New Vegas and go "30 citizens only and some ruined buildings? That supposed to be the gem of the Wastes?" While in reality it's obviously more, because you are given a simplified version of New Vegas this game's engine is able to handle. Of course there's more than 30 citizens or whatever, of course the Legioniers most oftenly said things in encounter with other people isn't "Degenerates like you belong on the cross" just like "Patrolling the Mojave almost..." isn't the most oftenly said sentence of NCR soldier, or "Arrow in tthe Knee while adventuring like you" is not what Skyrim's guard is spending his days thinking of. It's like if people were taking literally the save/load button and were saying 'Well how would you explain that?".
So it's this circle, people grab game's limitatiions, take them literally, at the same time coming up with a completely sucked-out-of-finger interpretation of the game world (Which they often support by this game limits set in their mind as a lore fact), and vuala.
I think that's what differs a fanfic (I'm saying it not as a bad word, but as fact of the type of the product) from simply another artists' look upon something. Being able to sticking to grow a different tree from the seed of the same origin, without turning it into a completely different brand of plant by appliance of "blackjack and hookers" genetical-engineering.


But the irony of this convo is, we still didn't figure out why So Much Ado About Legion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
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th3overseer

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptySun Dec 20, 2020 6:26 am

Right, like I said, I don't see the characters/narratives of my mods as being stylistically and tonally identical to the vanilla game. I could speculate as to what every vanilla NPC thinks and feels about the ethics of the slaver army trying to conquer the Mojave, but I'd prefer to leave the internal logic of vanilla characters to their original writers and developers.

Most of the characters in my mods are opposed to the Legion because they're originally from the Mojave or the NCR, and they see the Legion as evil conquerors. A small minority of characters hate them based solely on ethical philosophies. An even smaller minority hate them because those characters are already self-obsessed evil assholes, and Caesar would lash them to a cross for trying to run their criminal enterprises. If I write characters that don't fall into one of those bubbles, then that character likely won't have any particular issues with the Legion. (E.g. Charlie or the North Road slavers.)

Raul's dialogue regarding the legion is: "I don't really have a problem with them. People around here tend to see them as invading marauders planning to burn and pillage the countryside. But I've been to Arizona, boss. Before the Legion, it was a nasty place, so thick with raiders you couldn't trade with a town two miles up the road. Caesar's laws aren't nice, and their actions aren't always pretty. But then, neither am I, but you keep me around." When I say he's okay with the Legion because they wiped out the Arizona raiders, I'm only paraphrasing his vanilla dialogue.

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Bafonet

Bafonet

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Much Ado About Legion  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyWed Dec 23, 2020 10:46 am

@th3overseer wrote:
Right, like I said, I don't see the characters/narratives of my mods as being stylistically and tonally identical to the vanilla game. I could speculate as to what every vanilla NPC thinks and feels about the ethics of the slaver army trying to conquer the Mojave, but I'd prefer to leave the internal logic of vanilla characters to their original writers and developers...

Hey, sham, sorry for taking so long to reply, I was actually busy (REDACTED BY ALIENS).

As for the discussion, I think we've reached the point where we can only agree to disagree on a few things. Hence, might as well stop there. Will be waiting for your next stories with anticipation (Perhaps this will inspire you to fill up the "Legion gap" in storytelling of the modding scene. Or perhaps me, or perhaps tha dude over there, who knows ツ). S


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th3overseer

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Much Ado About Legion  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyWed Dec 23, 2020 3:28 pm

I'd like to do a more Legion-centric (if not necessarily pro-Legion) mod at some point in the future, but I've got a lot of vague future design documents, so we'll see what the future holds.

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CaesarCzech

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptyThu Feb 04, 2021 5:13 pm

@th3overseer wrote:
I'd like to do a more Legion-centric (if not necessarily pro-Legion) mod at some point in the future, but I've got a lot of vague future design documents, so we'll see what the future holds.

I wonder if you think you might take part in that Arizona expansion ?
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50percentJoe

50percentJoe

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PostSubject: Re: Much Ado About Legion    Much Ado About Legion  EmptySat Feb 06, 2021 1:22 am

I'm trying to think of a truly eloquent way to put into words my opinion of the legion, but I have to be honest, is their truly any scenario where I should give the slaver faction a break? The institute didn't get a free pass, Legion ain't gettin' a free pass. As a southerner, I take it as a point of motivation to make sure ideologies like that don't get to take root.

Slavers don't have camps, they just have locations I haven't set on fire yet.
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