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 NCR Army Vs. The Red Line

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Who Would Win?
The NCR Army
55%
 55% [ 11 ]
The Red Line
45%
 45% [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 20
 

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VeteranAlpha



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PostSubject: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:34 pm

Now not long ago someone made a topic called NCR Rangers Vs. Metro Spartan Rangers.

So i thought why not make one regarding the discussion of the Metro Red Line Vs. The NCR Army.

Let me say first what i think.

Overview:
 

So, what are your opinions and what do you have to say? Who would win in a battle? NCR Army or The Red Line?

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:19 pm

The NCR would win because DEMOCRACY IS NOT NEGOTIABLE
ps. I made the NCR ranger vs. Metro Ranger
BOS VS RED LINE Liberty Prime would be a challenge for The Red Line's usually superior equipment and keep up the awesome posts btw
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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:56 pm

@Lillandoniril wrote:
The NCR would win because DEMOCRACY IS NOT NEGOTIABLE
ps. I made the NCR ranger vs. Metro Ranger
BOS VS RED LINE Liberty Prime would be a challenge for The Red Line's usually superior equipment and keep up the awesome posts btw

I know you made it, that's why i mentioned someone made that topic. TongueTril

And nah The Red Line would win.


GLORY TO THE RED LINE! LONG LIVE COMRADE MOSKVIN!
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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:22 pm

At first, let me write that I'm no expert on Metro Lore. I started Metro 2033 (both the book and the game), watched most of the second game and that's about it. I know way more about Fallout/the NCR, but still not everything.

Anyway, I think it all depends on the battlefield and on how many people we're talking about.
Obviously the NCR would be at a huge disadvantage in the Metro tunnels, since they've never been there before. Since only Veteran Rangers seem to be having some kind of Night Vision, they'd have to get themselves either torches or flashlights.

If the battlefield is in the Mojave, the NCR is at a huge advantage. They can use all their vehicles (armored cars, vertibirds, possibly tanks, etc.) and would have a much easier time trying to attack the enemy. Even if they don't know the territory, they can at least see their enemies.

The NCR have their cannon-fodder troopers, their Rangers and Veteran Rangers, heavy Power Armor troops and vehicles all around. If we're putting all of the Red Line vs all of the NCR, the NCR is most certainly at a higher number. And unless they're fighting in the Metro tunnels, the NCR can use a wider variety of much more effective vehicles.

Then again, the Red Line has a big advantage equipment-wise. They have better weapons and armor and better trained soldiers. The NCR has access to a lot of better technology (Laser and Plasma Weapons, Power Armor, Fatmen, etc.) but usually don't use it.

Results:
If they fight in the Metro, the Red Line would win. They seem to have their better equipment more widely distibuted and can use all of their vehicles. The NCR don't know anything about the metro, anyone but the Veteran Rangers will have a very hard time at navigating and they get beaten/forced to retread, but with their heavy troopers and Rangers they'd take out a big chunk of the Red Line.

If they fight above the ground, the NCR would probably win, but lose huge numbers to the Red Line. The NCR could actually see their enemy, they could use vehicles and vertibirds and beat the Red Line by sheer numbers alone. The Red Line would be restricted, since they don't usually fight above ground and can't use any of the vehicles I know of. Even if they could, the NCR would probably still win.

I vote NCR.
PS: BoS vs Red Line? BoS, definitely. Liberty (Prime) is strong enough to kill and stand against everything short of a nuclear strike from space. His laser kills literaly anything in one shot.

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:18 am

@zoro4661 wrote:
At first, let me write that I'm no expert on Metro Lore. I started Metro 2033 (both the book and the game), watched most of the second game and that's about it. I know way more about Fallout/the NCR, but still not everything.

Anyway, I think it all depends on the battlefield and on how many people we're talking about.
Obviously the NCR would be at a huge disadvantage in the Metro tunnels, since they've never been there before. Since only Veteran Rangers seem to be having some kind of Night Vision, they'd have to get themselves either torches or flashlights.

If the battlefield is in the Mojave, the NCR is at a huge advantage. They can use all their vehicles (armored cars, vertibirds, possibly tanks, etc.) and would have a much easier time trying to attack the enemy. Even if they don't know the territory, they can at least see their enemies.

The NCR have their cannon-fodder troopers, their Rangers and Veteran Rangers, heavy Power Armor troops and vehicles all around. If we're putting all of the Red Line vs all of the NCR, the NCR is most certainly at a higher number. And unless they're fighting in the Metro tunnels, the NCR can use a wider variety of much more effective vehicles.

Then again, the Red Line has a big advantage equipment-wise. They have better weapons and armor and better trained soldiers. The NCR has access to a lot of better technology (Laser and Plasma Weapons, Power Armor, Fatmen, etc.) but usually don't use it.

Results:
If they fight in the Metro, the Red Line would win. They seem to have their better equipment more widely distibuted and can use all of their vehicles. The NCR don't know anything about the metro, anyone but the Veteran Rangers will have a very hard time at navigating and they get beaten/forced to retread, but with their heavy troopers and Rangers they'd take out a big chunk of the Red Line.

If they fight above the ground, the NCR would probably win, but lose huge numbers to the Red Line. The NCR could actually see their enemy, they could use vehicles and vertibirds and beat the Red Line by sheer numbers alone. The Red Line would be restricted, since they don't usually fight above ground and can't use any of the vehicles I know of. Even if they could, the NCR would probably still win.

I vote NCR.
PS: BoS vs Red Line? BoS, definitely. Liberty (Prime) is strong enough to kill and stand against everything short of a nuclear strike from space. His laser kills literaly anything in one shot.

From what i know the NCR doesn't own any tanks, neither do they own any armored cars, and the vertibirds are only made for the President and used for escorting and not fighting, so lets take that out of the way.

Now the NCR heavy trooper, their standard armor is Salvaged Power Armor, which bassically means that it is a potato.

Click Me. Very Happy:
 

Their standard weapons is a Light machine gun or
Heavy incinerator or
Minigun or
Hunting shotgun and
Super sledge

Good equipment, but what does it matter if they are going to go down in a couple of minutes with that salvaged power armor?

Now the NCR Rangers, as my good old friend @Aceofsnakes said.

@Aceofsnakes wrote:

The NCR Rangers rock standard issue LAPD Riot Control gear, trenchcoats, and hydration bladders. Let me say first that contrary to popular belief, even with a light amount of kevlar, Riot Control armor is ABSOLUTELY NOT tank armor. It is meant for RIOTs. Not HOSTILE FORCE ENCOUNTERS. Riots include blunt objects and at worst, small caliber firearms. Anything above a 9mm and you're just about dead, bruh. And even if your armor stops the projectile, the kinetic force of that round is knocking you on your ass. It's light and maneuverable, but it's pretty redundant in a wasteland scenario for a DIRECT ACTION group. The Ranger Combat Armor is a step above, and will deal significantly more protection for a Ranger. It's too bad the Elites haven't learned that. As for their Helmet, the night vision isn't anything that can't be achieved by conventional NVGs, and the red NVGs makes no sense from a realistic standpoint. But from a Lore-standpoint, it works. I guess. Regardless, that helmet is thin enough that any ballistic impact will give you a concussion, no arguments. At most, you're looking at protection from debris and shrapnel, and enhanced senses. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for recognizability, since half the battle is not shooting your own guys, the NCR Rangers are dressed in jeans and trenchcoats, with glowing red eyes. For Camo sakes, they stick out like a sore thumb and will be a target for snipers. For their own sakes, they are easily recognized by teammates and friendly fire isn't an issue. But skinny jeans aren't combat clothes, so they will be hindered. Not to mention the trench coat hindering movement as well. (Good god Obsidian, did you have /any/ military consultants on your team?) Let's not forget the horrendous lack of pouches for ammunition storage, so that's a down as well.

Then again that is your opinion, but here is just my opinion on why the NCR Army would lose against the Red Line.

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:14 am

Damn, you just kicked my ass with arguments.

The part about the tanks was pure speculation on my part, since I remember reading it at one point (hence the "possibly") and my internet is too slow for Googling (it does work, but it takes way too long). Thanks for the info.

As for vehicles, aren't there trucks in Camp McCarran?
from the Fallout Wiki:
 

Previous Fallout games (and the Fallout Bible as far as I know) also state that there are cars. To quote reddit users Kastera1000 and Fallout2isthebest:

Kastera1000 wrote:
According to Fallout Bible 5, "NCR is rumored to have a mechanized vehicle division outside of its farming vehicles, but the number of vehicles in the division is unknown."

Fallout2isthebest wrote:
Theres a guy outside of Shady Sands in Fallout 2 who watches cars, as well as a car repair guy. If there were no cars in the NCR both jobs would be pointless.

Also, how does Salvaged Power Armor = Potato? Isn't the SPA, lore-wise at least, pretty good armor?

As for the rest, you got me. What about the whole "advantage in numbers" thing, though? Couldn't the NCR just throw people at the Red Line 'till it's gone? It's what they've done against the BoS and Enclave (as far as I know), so why wouldn't it work against the Red Line?

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:51 am

Well, since you didn't play the last level of the Metro game then i suggest you watch this, even though the Red Line lost they caused massive damage to the Rangers and D6, almost wiping all of them out except for Miller and Artyom, and if you see near the end, then you can see the equipment and the amount of Troops the Red Line and they also used the old Spartan army shield tactic right here. If the NCR was to defend D6, how long do you reckon they could hold onto? Plus forgot to mention that the Reds were also fighting at the Reich side, so if they took all of those troops and moved to D6 and focused on the NCR, then imagine the damage?

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:38 am

Nah, I saw the endings of Last Light (a while ago). Are there any actualy numbers on either faction, though? I can only guess that the NCR is big enough to hold their huge-ass territory, and the Red Line apparently occupies a big part of Russia's Metros, but how many are they exactly?

I agree, in the Metro the Red Line would win. They'd lose people, but they'd win. But what if they fight in the Mojave? Let's say they fight in Camp McCarran. Do you think the NCR'd have better chances?

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:55 am

Well think about it, in the game you could hear Comrade Korbut talk about how he found weak points and lightly guarded entrances, if he did that with D6, he could surely do the same with Camp Mccarran, also he used an event as a distraction, while all the Spartans were at the peace confrence in Polis, the Reds striked at that exact time, they would do the same with Camp Mccarran, plus they are not some raider idiots who would go in the front entrance, they have slepper agents, sniper units, they are more smarter than the NCR thinks they are. TongueTril

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:12 pm

Huh. Well, guess I'm changing sides.
Communism is non-negotiable.

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:19 pm

Come join us Comrade, and get a Big-Hug

GLORY TO THE RED LINE! LONG LIVE COMRADE MOSKVIN!

Hahahahah. closed eyes smile

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:58 pm

Uhm well this sounds like actual fun.
Let me try :s
Despite the fact that it is very unliekly/just not possible that these factions would meet,there are roughly 250 years inbetween the Metro series timeline and Fallout timeline.(if I remember correct,I might be wrong correct me if so).
But with this out the way,one should also consider the lore of the two games.
Fallout series wasteland is not nearly as harsh as the Metro wasteland is,in the metro wasteland life outside the metro is bearly possible,you need a gas mask as the air is still contaminated and mutants are a serious threat.
And again,if I remember correct,the NCR is not the high end faction most people belive they are.
Deserters,Poorly trained troops (like the squad you meet near Lake las Vegas) and whole fortified camps running short on supplies&gear and equiped only with Caravan Shotguns.
Meh. True to Caesar I guess.
The line on the other hand isn't perfect either,but common,they have a (Train)TANK. A TANK.

But if it would come to a war with the NCR,I guess the NCR could not survive another war.The legion already gave them a punch to the face.A good amount of NCR soldiers would just crack up morally.Getting send to fight another army and probably get even more losses would break the NCR up.It would be just to much pressure,at the end they are only human,not war robots without emotions and morals.
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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:06 pm

@snowglobecollector also do not forget that they Ballistic Shields, Flamethrowers, Gatling Guns, Heavy Armored Suits and even NBC suits. TongueTril closed eyes smile

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:51 pm

It appears as though I was summoned. Alrighty, let's look at this.

For a quick summary: The NCR, fighting against a trained, modern military of sorts, will not stand a chance. They lack the fundamental training, strategy, and equipment to be able to do so. For instance, they are fighting a tribal force which according to lore, barely ever has access to decent firearms. Most of the Legion's ground forces are tribesmen with machetes and football pads, nothing more. The NCR has equipped most, if not all of its soldiers, with a Service Rifle or equivalent. There is no reason the NCR should be taking as much losses as it is against this foe - it's bad strategy.

The Red Line, in Metro, is a fierce military faction and it does battle frequently with the Reich. The Reich relies on smaller groups of superior trained soldiers, where as the Red Line relies on waves of conscripts with elites backing them up. In common, we see barely trained soldiers on the front line, with veterans backing them up further down. As seen above, they are well within their means to overrun an elite military faction with superior weapons and equipment. Let that sink in. They overran and were on the verge of annihilating the D6 Rangers, entirely, and gaining control of the Metro.

I'm seeing the location being brought up quite frequently. In reality, it's not gonna matter much. The NCR has fortified areas very similar to what the Red Line would expect. HELIOS ONE for example, is very similar to the D6 site. Paired with the large amount of Railroad Tracks in the NV Wasteland, that spells doom for NCR forces lacking any Anti Armor means. And many do, since the NCR does not need to worry about armored opponents. Armored as in Tank, not power armor. It's not invincible but it'll wipe out a large chunk of NCR's force.

And, let us not forget that if hte NCR has trouble fighting conscripts with machetes and NO training, what'll they do with conscripts who've lived in a hostile metro their entire lives and actually have decent firearms? Because let's not forget as well, that the Bastard Carbine uses 5.45x45mm ammunition. And that at the very least, Red Line can give kevlar to its soldiers, and while it may not be much at all, you're still looking at even the bottom tier of the Red Line utterly annihilating the NCR's bottom tier.

Just some thoughts Vault boy Smile

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:00 pm

@AceofSnakes haha man, i kind of summonded you since i tagged you. closed eyes smile

That right there is an amazing point of view, well done, +1 from me. Applauses

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:59 am

If Brotherhood of steel lost to NCR's superior numbers, i honestly do not see how the Red Line would have any better luck. So, at least on open ground, NCR would take it, but with higher casualties.

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:06 am

@Finnisher wrote:
If Brotherhood of steel lost to NCR's superior numbers, i honestly do not see how the Red Line would have any better luck. So, at least on open ground, NCR would take it, but with higher casualties.

Well, the Brotherhood lost because they were a much, much smaller group. And even then, they weren't completely decimated. That and the brotherhood did deal a major blow to NCR's forces. The only reason they really had to retreat was because they weren't equipped to take on such a large group. If the NCR truly had such an advantage, they would've trailed them to their bunkers and finished them there.

In fact, had the Red Line put up a defense at the Helios One, I guarantee the NCR wouldn't have taken it. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:32 am

@AceofSnakes wrote:
@Finnisher wrote:
If Brotherhood of steel lost to NCR's superior numbers, i honestly do not see how the Red Line would have any better luck. So, at least on open ground, NCR would take it, but with higher casualties.

Well, the Brotherhood lost because they were a much, much smaller group. And even then, they weren't completely decimated. That and the brotherhood did deal a major blow to NCR's forces. The only reason they really had to retreat was because they weren't equipped to take on such a large group. If the NCR truly had such an advantage, they would've trailed them to their bunkers and finished them there.

In fact, had the Red Line put up a defense at the Helios One, I guarantee the NCR wouldn't have taken it. Wink

During the beginning of Metro: Last Light, Artyom states that there's 40,000 people living in the Metro. Red Line is only a part of that, likely the biggest party in the metro, but compared to NCR, their numbers are minimal, seeing as the NCR is spread largely on the east coast of US, numbering in hundreds of thousands, supposedly at 700,000.

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:56 am

The majority of the NCR Troopers are poorly trainded and have crappy weapons such as a Service Rifle or Varmaint Rifle, while the Red Line has decent weapons and equipment and even has TANKS!! plus think about it, how long would it take the NCR to get backup from California or the East Cost? By that time the Red Line would be able to set up forts, bases, checkpoints, landmines, sniper units, etc: The NCR would have no intel whatsoever regarding the Red Line while the Red Line has tons of Spies and sleeper agents.

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PostSubject: Re: NCR Army Vs. The Red Line   Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:17 pm

I think the would be to lazy to fight each other .Or maybe a lot of Reds will leave their side to join the NCR or i dunno .There are a lot of possibilities .The Red line has the equipment and the resources but it lacks in manpower .It also has good spyes .
Its hard to judge since those are 2 different worlds .If they ever fight there would be a lot of blood.
Dont forget there are the Nazis ,The Chee..Bandits ,Independent factions like Polis .It would be a mess.
Also dont forget that the Reds obtained some kind of a bio-weapon .
The NCR has cannibals ,raiders ,The Legion and other things to fight .
So nobody wins ,everybody looses .
Unless Uncle Bourbon comes back from the dead and Ulman starts growing shrooms in the whole Metro and nuclear winter comes to NCR .
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