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 Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?

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MrEggs0925

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PostSubject: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:32 pm

Colonel Augustus Autumn who is seen by many as the main antagonist for Fallout 3's main base game campaign is actually not a "villain" but actually someone with noble goals and the power to make it happen.

Colonel Autumns goals are noble but extreme. Sure, you may say "He steals the purifier from you and dad, and takes credit for your dads work!" Yes he does steal the purifier from you and your dad but to the Enclave he is ruining the life's of a couple of people in order to begin his plan of rebuilding America. By securing the Purifier, the Enclave would of gained the public's support by having access to clean water and would of been the dominant force over the Brotherhood of Steel. Colonel Autumn actually says this at the base game ending. "Once this facility is operational, the masses will flock to the Enclave for fresh water, protection, and a plan for the future". A final note for this part would be that by comparing Colonel Autumns methods to those of West Coast Enclave you will actually see that Autumn is actually far more humane then his former West Coast counterpart.

Colonel Autumn was the real leader of the Enclave. While the President always outranks a Colonel this was not the case for the Enclave. President Eden was nothing but a puppet leader who's only power was the bunkers defense's and controls. This can be seen in the game where President Eden gives the order not to harm the prisoner (You) but as soon as you reach the mess hall the Colonel gives the order to shoot you on sight. All the Enclave personal follow the Colonels orders over the Presidents. Another note is that Autumn had the Self Destruct codes for Eden in case things got bad. 

Colonel Autumn had no intention of following through with Edens Plan. As stated before Eden was a puppet leader and had very little power except for that of the bunkers systems and defenses. Autumn as stated before had the Self-Destruct codes for Eden in case things got out of control and was a sort of contingency plan. While Eden wants to destroy all irradiated and/or mutated life and Eden does make it very clear when he gives you the FEV viral, Colonel Autumn on the other hand sums up what he is doing in a quote "Once this facility is operational (Purifier), the masses will flock to the Enclave for fresh water, protection, and a plan for the future". 

Why did the Enclave refuse to work with the Brotherhood? (Not really related but though I would include it). The Enclave was attacked by the Brotherhood after they "Hijacked" and took control of the Purifier. I also believe that the Enclave would not work with a group of organized and trained para-military forces since they are not part of the United States Government and are using "stolen" technology that belongs to the U.S. Government. I think that the Enclave perceived them as a weak force due to the Enclave being technologically superior in almost every way and also being tactically superior. I think this because the Enclave had the chance to destroy the Pentagon using the Bradley-Hercules Satellite to launch an orbital Strike on the Pentagon. Though they may of left the Pentagon due to the building being the Military Command Center and being the only known site to house Liberty Prime if they managed to recover it,(and other tech rare in the Wasteland). But this part is just speculation and is open to further conversation and discussion for anyone interested in doing so. 

These are my reason for why Colonel Autumn is actually one of the "good guys" and not at least in my eyes a villain. If you want to continue the discussion, add something I missed, or criticize and discuss what I have posted then please, feel free to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:54 pm

No Autumn would've used the Purifier as either a bargaining chip or bait convincing wastelanders to:
A - Come to the Enclave and die for being impure.
B - Help the Enclave in exchange for water
C - Be enslaved by the Enclave

Autumn is not as evil as Eden, sure, but he's still evil. Just because he says he isn't evil doesn't mean he isn't. The Brotherhood on the other hand, secured the purifier and spread it across the wasteland freely, without any regulations or policies on who or what can have it.

Autumn, if the Lone Wanderer let him win, would ruin all of James' work on Project Purity, it being used to only fuel a genocidal and maniacal cause. That so, it would be even worse for the Capital Wasteland than if you just let it explode. James sacrificed himself so in hopes he would kill Autumn and weaken the Enclave for you and the BoS to crush them, and he failed to do that as you can see Autumn popping some Rad-X to survive the encounter. But through the LW, James succeeds.

It's like comparing a genocidal maniac who nukes a nation to a genocidal maniac who takes his time killing and enslaving.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:22 am

@Corvo

Point A is incorrect as Autumn abandoned Raven Rock and the modified FEV which would of made Edens plan to commit a genocide on the Wastelands inhabitants so much easier. 

Point B is what I mentioned earlier with the general public coming to the Enclaves side due to them having the water. This would help the Enclave, the legitimate government rebuild the United States or even a fraction of it. 

Point C Enslaving the people would be unneeded as the thought of having protection, clean water, and a legitimate plan for the future is more then enough to get a sizable workforce and even boost their army.

Moving on, Colonel Autumn is most likely legitimate because he left behind the FEV and abandoned President Eden to make a final stand at the Purifier. The only chance the ENclave had to gain public support and move on with their goals. Of course the Enclave were going to have regulations on the Purifier in order to gain public support and increase their numbers. This would also ensure obedience as resisting would result in them loosing their fresh water supply. Furthermore it can be used to create unity and ensure cooperation as everyone wants what the Enclave has and in order to get that they need to work together. 

Also lets not forget what the BOS has become in Fallout 4. They are is some aspects "worst" then some of the atrocities the Enclave has committed (Killing all Ghouls/Mutants). Also let us not forget how incompetent FO3s BOS & Rivet City Security were with scam artists being supplied with Aqua Pura through corruption in the ranks which ended up with irritated water being sold to ghouls. Not to mention more radiation also worsens a ghouls physical and mental state until they become feral. Also let us not forget about how incompetent Rivet City Security was at defending water caravans from bandits in makeshift metal armor while being equipped with military grade combat armor and decent weaponry. Neither of these problems would of been a reality if the Enclave was in charge. A highly trained and disciplined military would make short work of bandits and raiders and would of ensured regional stability.


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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:08 am

I agree, I always felt a little disappointed that you couldn't ally with the Enclave in Fallout 3. In my opinion, Autumn evolved over his counterparts in the Enclave. "Purification" of the wasteland did not appear to be his primary motivation. Rather, he was motivated by the thought of having the Wasteland unite, just as the thirteen colonies did in the 1700's. Water would bring all the settlements together, and they would be able to unite in their fight against the Capital Wasteland. Basically, he really just wanted to make America great again. I feel like a lot of the atrocities that you would encounter Enclave soldiers committing were not condoned by Autumn. It's quite possible that these soldiers and officers still believed in the old Enclave's purpose, and were loyal to Eden. If I were an Enclave Soldier, I would gladly follow Colonel Autumn.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:04 am

not really a bad guy hence the reason i used a mod to join him on some playthroughs.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:12 am

o_o. Okay, more or less what the Enclave is talking about doing goes beyond sterilization of those they deem inferior, which in of itself would be an atrocity. They are talking a genocide, a culling, a Stalin style purge of those who have been exposed to radiation, which if you did any of Moira's quests...would include you :b. Corvo covered it pretty well, dude is still on some genocidal nonsense. What noble goals does the man have beyond (forgive me for the bad joke) making the American Commonwealth "great" again through force? I mean, the nature of the series is recognizing humanity's propensity towards large scale violent confrontation, why the Sam Hill would one want to metaphorically raise America's spectre following a time of nationalism and over expenditure that led to the Death of the world?

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:18 pm

@Peanutpwner71 This is exactly what im saying. The Enclave in the Capital are not bad. They just believe using force is necessary and considering many people are barley surviving and will sometimes do whatever they need to stay alive, I cant blame the Enclave for keeping their guard up.  

@GhastlyDemise Only President Eden who was a puppet leader believed in exterminating and committing an act of genocide on all irradiated and mutated forms of life on Earth. Colonel Autumn believed in bringing back America and restoring it to even a fraction of its former glory. This can be seen as Autumn abandoned Eden and even says "The masses will flock to the Enclave for fresh water, protection, and a plan for the future". Autumn also left behind the modified FEV viral which would of made this act of genocide much easier would he wanted to have done that. 

This goal of restoring a destroyed world of looters, raider, and worst back to or similar to that of Pre War America is a very challenging task that would require many other things to be planned and done. I believe this was his goal at the time because his priority would of been to restart America, not worry about traveling to space withing 10 years or establishing colony's and uniting the world as quickly as possible. Just jump starting America and letting his successors and even him worry about them once the time came for it. Lastly America is not totally reliant on gasoline, oil, etc.. with most if not all of Americas power coming from fusion, atomic or nuclear power plants. Also all modern cars and robotics ran on fusion or atomic power. The only thing that would require gasoline was their vertibirds and I believe they were using gas because they were still in prototype stage and not fully used. Had they been finished, I believe they would of used atomic power like most modern cars in the Fallout universe.


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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:11 am

I think good and bad are terms that don't apply perfectly in fallout. The world as we knew it had ended in a nuclear crucible. Eden wanted to kill anyone mutated, in any way, with FEV so he could rule over a purified country. I'd regard that as Lawful/Stupid Evil. Everyone is mutated to some degree sans the Vault 101 inhabitants, so that'd be one small country. Sure, the end result is that you've got a small but safe country, that doesn't mean anything in light of the empty wasteland with the millions of rotting corpses.

Autumn doesn't fit that mold, though. Autumn wants to restore America, and with it the melting pot of the people. Autumn got that America was defined not by borders, but by the people. He wanted to turn the Enclave into a legitimate force, a government all its own, by holding the purifier. For him, as with Ulysses, America slept and he had a plan to wake it up. Autumn has his ultimate goal and he knows how to get there. Autumn looked at Eden's big picture, figured out how to get there, and chose to start by providing the people of America with clean water. If anything, his chosen goal is why he doesn't fall into a classic good/evil dichotomy. He's got his shade of gray.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Tue May 30, 2017 2:47 pm

No he's just very poorly written.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Tue May 30, 2017 5:32 pm

@Corvo wrote:
No Autumn would've used the Purifier as either a bargaining chip or bait convincing wastelanders to:
A - Come to the Enclave and die for being impure.
B - Help the Enclave in exchange for water
C - Be enslaved by the Enclave

Autumn is not as evil as Eden, sure, but he's still evil. Just because he says he isn't evil doesn't mean he isn't. The Brotherhood on the other hand, secured the purifier and spread it across the wasteland freely, without any regulations or policies on who or what can have it.

Autumn, if the Lone Wanderer let him win, would ruin all of James' work on Project Purity, it being used to only fuel a genocidal and maniacal cause. That so, it would be even worse for the Capital Wasteland than if you just let it explode. James sacrificed himself so in hopes he would kill Autumn and weaken the Enclave for you and the BoS to crush them, and he failed to do that as you can see Autumn popping some Rad-X to survive the encounter. But through the LW, James succeeds.

It's like comparing a genocidal maniac who nukes a nation to a genocidal maniac who takes his time killing and enslaving.

Pretty much what @Corvo said sums up my half opinion to be honest, though i have to say i feel Autumn was brainwashed in some way, so I cant help but blame him. There wasnt much of a back story on him which makes the question a bit confusing for me. As the way it runs he basically kills James, but he does say a number times he was going to attack so i cant say his intention is completely bad. Im guessing he nearly died same as James, but survived which would have changed his opinion on you. Then we had the player destroy the enclave base, i mean yeah by this point Autumn had already figured out Edens intention. I mean from top of my head im sure there was a reset code in his locker for Eden, so he must have known something was wrong about him just in case or was he using eden all along as a mask?

I think there is part of me that says, was autumn trying to get the code so that he could activate the purifier and get it to work unlike edens intention. However, i do feel that the Enclave would have used the water to their advantage to get the extra power house to take out Brotherhood of Steel. I also feel the reason why Autumn wanted the LW dead when he finds that Eden has swapped is because they might think the LW might go with Eden's option and think there better off dead. Pretty sure Autumn won't want to kill everyone off in the CW, but certainly use it for power to get at the BOS.

So i think he is 50/50 in my opinion really, its hard to say really without a better concrete story of Autumn. * Also trying to remember fallout 3 from top of my head,  i might have got muddled up in some places, but i think what i can remember is right TongueTril*

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Tue May 30, 2017 5:58 pm

Good points, makes me wish they had fleshed out the Enclave more in FO3 rather then just have them be "the bad guys".

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Tue May 30, 2017 7:54 pm

Autumn isn't really bad. He wants to build america up and use water as a central control for it. But He
He didn't execute it right

Brother hood - Good

Enclave - Badguys

Eden - Bad

Autumn - Kinda bad

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 12:51 am

@MrVulpe I can only agree with part of Corvos's statement as there was little evidence to show that Autumn had any intentions in following through with Edens plans of genocide. His statement suggesting highly of free and clean water for all is false. The BOS were reluctant to give water to ghouls and only got some due to corruption in the ranks allowing for a con artist to buy the water. Also by the events of Fallout 4 the BOS have gone back to their original plan of hoarding tech and removing or limiting the assistance of local citizens in the Capital Wasteland. They still hunt mutants but most likely are not shipping water to un-allied settlements. 

Colonel Autumn arrived at the purifier and instructed the current personal to hand over the facility to U.S. Control. They did not listen and Colonel Autumn is more of a strategic military commander, not someone really cut out for diplomacy as the evidence has shown. Let us not forget James decided to flood the chamber with radiation, not Autumn but he did shoot the other female doctor so there is room for debate on that subject. 

Autumn had the reset code for Eden because in a holotape I believe he states that he does not completely trust Eden and wants to have something along the lines of a backup plan, but don't quote me on that! Colonel Autumn tries to kill the Lone Wanderer because of his connection with James, his father which Autumn in a way killed. The LW is also working with the BOS making him an enemy of the Enclave. 

Finishing off with the matter regarding payback. Yes of course Autumn would want to get payback on the BOS. The BOS have seized control of U.S. Military property, installations and have openly engaged in conflict with the Enclave. The BOS would never allow for the Enclave to become such a huge power with advanced tech to rule the CW and the Enclave would never allow for a rebel para-military BOS faction to exist as it would cause problems for Enclave expansions and rebuilding efforts, and they again have U.S. Government property.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 1:04 am

@MrEggs0925 I think thats pretty fair with what you have said there. I do believe its hard to really say whether he is bad or not hahaha

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 2:06 am

@MrEggs0925 I can admit that the Brotherhood do have somewhat elitist beliefs but to say that the Enclave are any better is downright false given that the Enclave kill more people (humans nonetheless) than the BoS have. The FO4 BoS is no exception as they are a combination of both the Lyons' Pride philosophies and the traditional ones. Lyons Pride was pretty much NCR in Power Armour, hence why they were so corrupt, and so Maxson and his followers didn't accept that, turning it back into the BoS, how it should be. They still ship water, as Deacon mentions "I miss Capital Wasteland, you can actually drink the water there". Obviously they dont ship to unallied settlements, I mean how many times have you seen the US ship items to Cuba when not in some kind of agreement? BoS is and always will be conservative, and only help those who help them, and that applies to FO4 as well, because the BoS is a new faction to Boston and most people will not know who they are. It's logical to assume a FO4 BoS victory will result in clean water for Diamond City and the Sole Survivor's settlements, them being allied with the BoS and all.

The Enclave is all about the US government but they do not stand for it. The US was formed upon free will, and this has been emphasized both in Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 with the symbolism of the founding fathers and the US constitution. Is a country all that free if they are forced by their government to hand over private projects just so that the government can profit out of it? Because as I said, Autumn would have used it as a bargaining chip, and not a free resource as the BoS did, and argue that as much as you want, but the water was spread more freely in the hands of the Brotherhood than the Enclave would.

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve either.” - Benjamin Franklin

So because Autumn "in a way killed the LW's father", that gives him reason to kill the LW? I'm sorry but you don't kill a person because of their bloodline, by that logic the descendants of tyrants should be killed. The sins of the Father should not affect the child.

The Enclave are doomed anyhow, even with Autumn in charge. Once Autumn perishes another Eden-like elitist will rise up to restore the Enclave to it's tradition, just as Maxson did with the BoS. Given the smaller gene pool, the Enclave is doomed.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 3:16 am

I've always been mad that you couldn't join the enclave in fo2 and fo3. It really would have made playing a low karma character fun. The first time I played fallout 3 when you're at Raven Rock I kept thinking yes I can finally joined the enclave but my dreams were shattered when I had to side with the neutered DC BOS. I wanted either the outcasts or the enclave as a second choice as I thought both were immensely more badass than the DC BOS.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 4:23 am

@MrVulpe I in no way said that Colonel Augustus Autumn was completely a good person. I even included that Autumn shot the female doctor and due to that shooting it triggered the events leading to James suicide, basically saying that Autumn was largely responsible for James death. Secondly I said that Autumn is a good military commander, not a good politician meaning he is a failure when it comes to diplomacy. Personally though I do believe Autumn while his intentions are mostly noble and for the good of the country his methods can be somewhat extreme but they do create results. 

@Corvo Well yes the Enclave has killed more humans then the BOS if you count the West Coast Enclave. They were at war with the NCR and BOS. The land was claimed by the U.S. Government and these new factions were all using government property. Hard to compare the new Enclave and the old Enclave as the new Enclave is under new leadership and is more passive then the older Enclave. Especially when we get a sense of who really controls the Enclave. To see the new Enclave you have to look at Colonel Autumn as the Enclave follows him. 

Your original argument had three points, A seemed kind of far fetched given the true ruler of the Enclave, but B and parts of C were comparable between the two factions. Point B is what the BOS are now doing giving protections and supplies to those who ally and support their cause. This is exactly what the Enclave would of done as it would support its allied settlements with supplies and security. Point C is basically an extreme version of point B without the freedoms of choice. The Enclave wouldn't of slaved the people as Colonel Autumn wouldn't of allowed it. He attempted so hard to gain public support through the water purifier instead of just enslaving all of them wastelanders. Continuing with a later statement you made about water being used as a bargaining chip at the end of your second paragraph, it fits in with my summary of Point B and how while originally the water was given freely, that has changed as even you stated it yourself  that they would not give water away for free to un-allied settlements. In 2277 Megaton and the BOS were in no such relationship. Probably the only reason water was still being given out freely was due to the settlements being so dependent on the BOS for water they would have no choice but to stay with them. Deacon stating that "you can drink the water there" is very vague and can mean a lot of things. For example it can mean that you must pay for water or allied settlements receive purified water or it can mean that free water is being given out non stop for all.

The Enclave is the U.S. Government and stand for a remnant or shadow of of what the US was. I will agree however that to take private property from someone due to the ability for to make profits is unjust and unfair. But this site was property of the US Government and given the circumstances of a Nuclear War the government would not pass a chance to restore the Enclave as a formidable force and even restore the country to a fraction of its former glory.   

My previous statement was about how Colonel Autumn was fearing a conflict of interests with the LW and his own. The LW loved his father and would most likely want to follow in his footsteps which could be problematic for the Enclave. Also if word got out that the Enclave seized control of the Purifier and used brutal methods to secure it the Enclave would lose a large majority of their public support once they got the purifier working.

Would write more but it is getting late and I need to sleep. Was fun to debate and discuss and I will try to respond later tomorrow if anyone wishes to continue.


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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 4:40 am

I don't really have a lot to add as people have already pretty much stated everything, but when you first see an Enclave trooper, they will try to kill you. I'm not talking about the quest line scripted things. If you bump into an Enclave trooper before that quest, they will attack you. They have orders to kill anyone they find. I usually run into a trooper by Dukov's place. They always shoot. They are pretty clearly not out for anyone's best interest but their own.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 9:34 pm

@Wertologist The Enclave stated that those who interfered with Enclave operations would be dealt with. That included those approaching Enclave personal. You cant forget that people in the wasteland would be desperate and likely armed. The thought of having advanced tech and weapons to a wastelander especially in a post apocalyptic world is enough to want to attack the Enclave so they would have to be cautious for that.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 10:08 pm

Walking down the street can hardly be considered interfering with Enclave operations. There is nothing of interest in that area for the Enclave and even if you're walking/running away, they'll attack you unprovoked.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   

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Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?

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