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 Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?

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MrEggs0925

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 5:48 pm

@Wertologist Do not forget you are armed and have associated yourself with the Brotherhood of Steel a enemy faction of the Enclave. To approach a restricted area is to interfere with Enclave operations as an attempt to breach a restricted area is a sign of attack. 

From a technical standpoint though the reason why Enclave troops attack the player character is due to the poor story writing for the Enclave and possibly engine limits. The Enclave are portrayed as the "Bad Guys" and it is very hard for players to see what is actually going on in the Enclave during the events of 2277-78. Look at it this way, what is the point of trying to communicate and win over the population if you are just going to shoot them every time you see them? This is something the Enclave would never do. It would either be one or the other, communicate with the population or wipe them out.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 6:00 pm

@MrEggs0925 lets not forget that the Enclave kills the Lone Wanderer if you give them the code to the purifier, and kills Amata once she gives them the location of Vault 101 if you let the rebels escape Vault 101.

If they are not all that bad, why would they kill somebody that gave them what they wanted? That's pure savagery.

Not only that, but they capture and torture Nathaniel Vargas from Megaton, a proud supporter of the Enclave for basically no reason.

"They're not who they say they are... Get out while you can, before they get you too!" - Nathaniel Vargas during The American Dream (quest).

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MrEggs0925

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 6:18 pm

@Corvo The Lone wanderer is an enemy to the Enclave and could put the entire future of Enclave into disarray. The Lone Wanderer knows to much and could expose the Enclave for stealing the purifier. But when looking at the case of the purifier you must look at the current state of the U.S. Mainland and what securing the purifier could do restore the U.S. 

Amata is a unique case that is hard to justify. I will have to agree with you on this one as that was a very weird event. The only thing I could see is bad writing. They attempted to make the Enclave look entirely bad when realistically they would of never done that. Other then that I don't see why they would do that. 

Vargas was probably just brought their recently. I believe they were attempting to gather intelligence on the locals as the majority of the public defended the BOS and not the Enclave. I guess the questions asked scared him and they way they asked them similar to that of the way they asked you questions. Probably wasn't best that they had military Officers and generals interrogating prisoners instead of getting someone who was more diplomatic about the situation. 

In conclusion the Enclave has the authority to restore the U.S. by any means necessary. Everything done by the Enclave under Colonel Autumn's leadership was done in order to restore order and the U.S. by any means necessary.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 10:29 pm

@MrEggs0925 They attack you on sight even before you meet the BoS. You can bump into an Enclave Trooper right outside Dukov's place before you even see a BoS trooper. Enclave will still attack you on sight. Even if you're unarmed.

Technical reasoning aside, it still happens. They will shoot you on sight and it offers no explanation other than they want you and everyone else there dead. It doesn't matter if you're armed to the teeth and a known BoS partner or you're bare ass naked with nothing but a can of Pork and Beans. Those troopers will shoot you.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 10:59 pm

In all fairness, Autumn's upbringing in a post-holocaust totalitarian junta really is not something Bethesda would ever devote any resources to fleshing out; not just because they would find it meaningless, but because the people at Bethesda are just terrible writers.

But he gets the job done; he fills the primary antagonist role quite nicely, and that's all Bethesda really needed. 6/10 average characterization, 9/10 average characterization with rice.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 11:13 pm

This is like saying that the communist regime wasn't bad because they fought the Nazis and their goals and intentions were pure. There was just a little genocide along the way and some corrupt leaders.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed May 31, 2017 11:30 pm

@"Dewderson" Well you know what they say; every villain is the hero of their own story.

But the thing about Bethesda's writing is that they can't handle multi-dimensional characters; Fallout 4's factions proved that. Why they can't write complex characters is a completely different beast though, it really isn't hard to come up with believable motivations for fictional characters.

Like you said about the Communists; Real life heroes and villains aren't always clear cut, black and white, because their motivations usually aren't as one-dimensional as the media we consume would have us believe. Communism v.s. Capitalism has been the bane of the Western world for nearly 70 years now and not one person can completely tell you precisely why they hate each other so much. Subterfuge, espionage, and political manipulation can really muddle something clear into something murky and fucking incomprehensible.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:25 pm

@Wertologist But you have still worked against the Enclave allying yourself with the Brotherhood. No sense in letting an enemy of your faction live to attack you another day. Besides these are professional soldiers. What if you attack them when they just let you go? What if as soon as they get close you start fighting with them. Better to put down a known enemy of the Enclave before he can do something.

@jimmywhistles Its a shame though. It would of been nice to have the choice to side with the Enclave and choose Eden or Autumn. Have the chance to maybe even run the Enclave or at least be a senior member in it. At first look though he does fit the role of the main antagonist, but it would of been better to expand and look deeper to see Eden was the antagonist. 

@Dewderson That's a very simplified way of looking at it but things are not that simple. You cant just say one side is right and one side is bad without its problems. I never said that Autumn was the best human to have lived and his goals were to save everyone and make this perfect world. I even said that his goals were noble but his methods were extreme. Colonel Autumn sums himself up with his own quote "We are authorized to restore order and civility, by any means necessary". This means they will do whatever must be done at whatever cost to restore the U.S.


Last edited by MrEggs0925 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Repeated same words twice.)
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:37 pm

Autumn just wanted to slap the Enclave's name on the Project, it was Eden who wanted to commit genocide.

To be rather honest, Autumn just seems like a really neutral type of character. He has no regard whatsoever for the local populace, just follows orders from Eden and objects to whatever sort of genocidal plans he has.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:03 pm

@mixtape69 That an interesting opinion. Personally though I think Autumn really had control and just used President Eden as a "puppet leader". I think he had some compassion for the locals, but if they were to get in the way he would have no trouble in eliminating them. It is obvious that Autumn had no intent in following through with Edens genocide plan.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:49 pm

@MrEggs0925 As I said before, they attack even if you haven't met the BoS. If you side with the BoS then they have justifiable reasoning, but they will attack you before you even meet the BoS. In my current playthrough I have not even seen a BoS member and yet the Enclave will still try to kill me. I have not allied with them yet or shown any sign of it and they will still shoot at me.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:49 am

@MrEggs0925 wrote:
This means they will do whatever must be done at whatever cost to restore the U.S.

@MrEggs0925 wrote:
they will do whatever must be done at whatever cost to restore the U.S.

@MrEggs0925 wrote:
whatever must be done at whatever cost to restore the U.S.

@MrEggs0925 wrote:
at whatever cost to restore the U.S.

@MrEggs0925 wrote:
at whatever cost

@Dewderson wrote:
There was just a little genocide along the way

That's my point, brother.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:00 pm

@Dewderson In the words of Todd Howard, "It just works". It still gets the point across though.

@Wertologist If you encountered Enclave soldiers before completing the Waters of Life quest your game was experiencing a bug and in your case cannot be considered lore friendly. The only way to see Enclave members is to finish as stated before the Waters of Life quest, where you got to the Citadel and ally yourself with the BOS. After that moment you are a member of the BOS. Not to mention you were a witness of what unfolded at the purifier and need to be eliminated. The only other thing I could think of was you were exploring near Raven Rock and the game decided to spawn a harder level enemy or the soldier spawns were somehow triggered at the gates of Raven Rock.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:13 pm

@"MrEggs0925" There seems to be a debate on who the real antagonist of Fallout 3 was though. Eden was pulling the strings for a while it seemed until Autumn's coup d'etat. Autumn was technically in charge of the Enclave forces but he had to answer to Eden.

It really just seemed that the real villain is just the Enclave. The writers either couldn't write motive or meaning with those two characters, so just the entire faction is evil, I guess? Either way it's fine, the story is serviceable, and with Broken Steel it's enhanced beyond what was initially given to us.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:04 pm

@MrEggs0925 I don't think it's a bug since I experience it on multiple files. There are set locations where they spawn and I'm pretty sure it is dependent on your level.

Found this on the wiki:

"Enclave soldiers do not normally appear until after the Waters of Life quest. However, with Broken Steel installed they will appear at Enclave Camp locations prior to the quest (even when the camp was not set up). A soldier appears the second time a player visits a site where a camp will eventually be, if the player reaches high level the Hellfire variant will spawn as well."

Bottom line is that they are hostile to you before you meet the BoS. They definitely aren't out for the wasteland's best interest.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:07 pm

@Wertologist So yes they are not supposed to appear before the Waters of Life quest. If soldiers are appearing at camp locations before the camp is even setup then it must be a bug created from Broken Steel. This is a technical issue and cannot be considered part of the lore. Especially with such little evidence to back it up as being intentionally part of the game. 

Until then it is not logical to assume that they are trying to kill everyone because they are appearing at certain locations before their camps had even spawned in.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:30 am

@MrEggs0925 Or it could be that they are setting up camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:18 pm

@Wertologist What part of the campaign were you at when Enclave troops started to appear?

Also how many Enclave troops appeared?


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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:51 pm

@Wertologist wrote:
@MrEggs0925 Or it could be that they are setting up camp.
you just sound like youre trying to be difficult. Its a glitch they dont spawn until after the waters of life check the wiki I'm sure it's on there. The enclave isn't that bad and for a long time ice wished Bethesda made the faction joinable but now I'm happy it's not because they would have ruined it.

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PostSubject: Re: Is Colonel Autumn really "bad"?   Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:36 am

Autumn’s a bastard, no doubt about it. But when you really look at it the gap between the Brotherhood and his Enclave in terms of methods and morality is much narrower than it is between the NCR and Legion. The Brotherhood shoots Ghouls on sight and according to Winthrop they’ve killed at least some in the past.

Are those deaths worth any less than Janice or James just because we didn’t personally get to know them? Both organizations are deeply imperialistic and autocratic (though Autumn arguably has slightly less tyrannical leanings, as it’s possible to weaken his loyalty to Eden by pointing out that he wasn’t properly elected).

The Brotherhood unilaterally take control of the Purifier in Broken Steel and by the time of Fallout 4 have set themselves up as a Feudal, alien gentry lording over impoverished peasants, a situation similar to the British occupation of Ireland and India. Their policy of pillaging crops from peasants bears and uncomfortable similarity to Nazi and Stalinist policies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan) . On the whole Autumn’s closer to Mr House in terms of morality than he is to Caesar or Eden. He would have been a welcome third option in contrast to the BOS and Eden.
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