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 EU>Disney

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CrossDesigNate

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PostSubject: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyMon Feb 26, 2018 11:03 am

Since Disney has taken over (ruined) Star Wars, many fans, both new and old have come out saying the EU was terrible and Disney is doing great. But lets be honest, the writing and stories in both the books and movies have been pretty abysmal. Lets analyze Disney and EU.

Disney:

-Obvious Political alignment and messages; Star Wars has never been about any kind of politics what-so-ever except for taking influences from events. I hate both left and right propaganda in my scifi.

-Shallow characters with little to no character development and growth which creates the famed Rey as a Mary Sue. Characters are the same people they were from beginning to end. Characters mgaically changed between movies, off screen.

-Little to no world building. Everything introduced in the new movies are retreads of what we have already seen in previous Star Wars movies. Plot points are ridiculously recycled from previous movies. Rebels/Resistance, Empire/First Order, Death Star/Starkiller Base, Rebels on the run almost destroyed/resistance on the run almost destroyed

The sequels never had to be made, nothing has happened at all in Disney's canon. Literally, nothing has changed at fucking all.

EU: Sure has some shitty stories, but when the quality was good it couldn't be touched.

-Dark Forces/jedi Knight

-New Jedi Order

-Young Jedi Knights

-heir to the empire trilogy

-KOTOR

-Hyperspace War

-Legacy Comics

-Clone Wars Cartoon

-Republic Commando

-Legacy of the Force Series

-Hell I'll even say Dark Empire. Even DE shits all over Disney Canon.

-X Wing/Wraith Squadron book series

-Rogue Squadron game trilogy

-Stories in X Wing game trilogy

-Shadows of the Empire

-KOTOR comics

-Fuck it, all Dark Horse comics

-Hell even Family Guy: Blue Harvest has a more compelling story line than disney canon

-HELL EVEN BATTLESTAR GALACTICA 78 SHITS ALL OVER DISNEY and that was just a mormon star wars clone, or thats how it was seen in the 70's.

One thing I don't understand is how Disney treats marvel and Disney treats Star Wars. Compared to Star Wars, Disney is treating the MCU with respect, growing the characters, developing the world, having a story line with the good guys losing things permanently. Having a coherent and believable world, essentially. For Star Wars, it's as if Disney thinks "whatever, it'll make fuck tons of money no matter what. lets get this discussion rolling!
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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyMon Feb 26, 2018 11:26 am

I'm a firm believer in the EU being far superior to what is currently being put out by Disney. However it still relatively early days yet so I do still hold out hope.

I do think the current trilogy would of benefited much more if they followed the EU aftermath instead of this new direction they went in.
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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyMon Feb 26, 2018 11:30 am

Even if the stories get better, the whole canon is going to be tainted by the new "main part" of the universe being a rehash with new names. I'm sure there will eventually be something that EU fans will love, but the universe will not be coherent.

It definitely would have. the New canon has no concept of power struggles (Empire splitting after Palpatines death), military strategy (whole republic fleet in 1 star system) and a natural evolution of people as they grow and get older (Luke becoming a useless old hermit and being completely out of character).

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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyMon Feb 26, 2018 3:54 pm

@CrossDressiNate I pretty much agree with you, the story and characters presented to us so far pale in comparison to everything from the EU, plus with the films being downright nonsensical at times (TLJ anyone?). There is no hope for the expanded Disney canon to ever be good. Star Wars films should have died after ROTS, any we could have just continued expanding with novels and comics and we wouldn't end up with the crap we have today.

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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyMon Feb 26, 2018 7:24 pm

Or George Lucas could've just said "Fuck the haters, it's my story!" All GL had to do was get a script/screen writer to help him write and get a good director and his new sequel trilogy would've been fine. GL is unbeaten in world building and on overall good story points, he just sucks at directing and writing the dialogue.

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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyMon Feb 26, 2018 8:13 pm

Well spoken, i agree with all the things you haveĀ said, in fact, i was thinking the same when TFA and TLJ were released. So much recycled content, crappy characters, useless plotsĀ and shit.

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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyMon Feb 26, 2018 11:26 pm

I'll have to disagree :

SPOILERS FOR EP VIII incoming. They are too many to mask. Sorry.

- About the political messages : A wise man and excellent storyteller once said : " Everything is politics ".
Every ( well-crafted ) piece of fictional entertainment is about politics and / or philosophy. If a story is well-written, it'll contain political or philosophical messages... Granted, the messages in the Sequels are kinda obvious, but I'll argue that the political undertone of the Prequels were even worst !! Also, maybe some people doesn't like it, but freedom, equality, (in)justice, Good and Evil, poverty, War... are important subject worthy of being talked about, whether people like it or not, drawing parallels with our society's current day issues is good for storytelling.
Plus, if you're referring to Rose's bit about wining by " saving the one we love and not kill the one we hate ", well... Can you remind me how Luke won against the Emperor ? Instead of killing the one he hated ( the Emperor ), he decided to save the person he loved ( Anakin Skywalker ). Obi-Wan tried to do the same thing in the Prequels, but failed ( for once XD ) !
Rose's line was the philosophy of the Jedi and Star Wars said out loud, and people hated it...

- Character development : I REALLY don't want to sound aggressive or offensive, I really try to be as calm as usual and keep my cool, but I think you are totally wrong on this one... And i can't stand this bullshit anymore XD !!!!
First : Rey is as much a Mary Sue as Luke or Anakin were Marty Stu. I mean... How are their path different ? They both start off as humble farmer / slave / scavenger before discovering that they have a greater role in the Galaxy. After failing to save someone they loved ( Obi-Wan / Shmi / Han Solo ), they get their shit together and decide to embrace their destiny and do something amazing for their lack of skill ( Destroying the Deathstar / ... whatever Anakin did XD / Defeating a weakened Kylo Ren ).
Also, Rey fuckin' fails everything all the damn time !!!
She FAILS to realize her parents are never coming back.
She FAILS to resist Kylo Ren's force powers. Several times.
She FAILS to save Han Solo.
She FAILS to convince Luke to come back ( at first, ok... but still !! ).
She FAILS to resist the call of the Dark Side during her first training section with Luke.
She KEEPS ON FAILING to realize that Ben Solo is dead, and that Kylo Ren is not redeemable.
Beside, as I said, Han Solo never failed anything on screen before the end of EP V. Obi-Wan never failed anything all throughout the saga ( appart from the all " saving Anakin " part ), and most of all, the most over-powered character ever........ R2-D2 never failed anything ever XD !

For the character development : Rey undergoes a lot of character development... For example : she refuses Anakin's Lightsaber's call before finally embracing her Force powers. She's convinced her parents are somebody special and will be coming back before hearing the ugly truth from Kylo Ren.
Finn starts out as a egocentric coward afraid of the First Order, only caring about the distance he puts between him and the bad guys but over the course of the movies, he realize the cause he's fighting for is worthy of dying for and almost does it.
Kylo Ren starts out as a Darth Vader wanna be, only to find out he's the exact opposite ( Darth Vader never wanted to be as such, but became a sith to protect the one he loved while Kylo Ren WANTS to be a powerful dark side user in order to kill everything he was once close to ). He killed his dad, which utterly destroyed his psyche. He was faithful to Snoke before deciding he would be a better Supreme Leader, etc, etc...
Also, characters had some pretty deep personality change between EP V and EP VI : Luke become a hell lot darker, Lando became a good guy suddenly and was forgiven by Han without any explanations ( the last time Han saw Lando before being frozen, the dude was selling him to Vader. The first time he interacts with Lando after being unfrozen, he saves him from the Saarlac and ask him to " trust him "... ).

- No world building / recycling plot threads ? You said it yourself : The Sequels talk about Politics. The Original never talked about politics ( I disagree but whatever ). Ergo : The Sequels are talking about different things XD.
I'd also like to talk about the infamous casino plot thread from EP VIII : All throughout the saga, a pretty big emphasis was put on the political regime of the Galaxy ( Empire / Republic ), but we never EVER saw what the " normal folks " said about the Empire or the Republic. Never once, we had their point of view... it was always the hero's point of view, which is obviously bias since they were IN the politics... Kinda like the President says " The People of our country wants this or that "... the hell do they know ? They don't live like we do ! How can they know what we think ?
In the casino sequence on Canto Byte or whatever the planet's name is, we finally get to see what the people living under the First Order live : they are either VERY RICH because they help the bad guys, or REALLY POOR because they don't like the First Order ( Rose's family backstory as miners and weapon test subjects, the slave kids... etc ).

I could go on and on and on and on for hours but I know that this is already too long of a message.

So I'll just say this : If you want your views and ideas to be challenged, read and reply, I'd love to have a civilized debate with you guys... Maybe you'll teach me a thing or two and make me realize I'm wrong, who knows ! I'm willing to accept I'm just a moron... it wouldn't be the first time XD !

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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyTue Feb 27, 2018 1:43 am

I believe both are somewhat flawed. Theres a reason nobody talks about Jaxxon the rabbit (yes a literal anthropomorphic furry rabbit). Also the structure of the EU was inherently flawed, many of the stories were contradictory at points and the universe became to large for anyone to consistently fact check causing an overtly confusing canon.

However, this doesn't mean everything Disney touches turns to gold. Star Wars: Bloodline is probably one of the worst books I've ever read for its odd writing and utter pointlessness. I've never read something with such little bearing on canon that'd I'd say its equivalent to reading something on fanfiction.net. Not only that but without a doubt there was no foresight in the production of the films, which I think has proven to be its major setback. Not to mention its pointless plot lines.

And theres my rant about star wars that only like two people will read.

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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyTue Feb 27, 2018 2:21 am



Politics: The stories of Star Wars never had any political influence, it was a bit more fantasy than scifi. Star Wars was never social commentary like Star Trek or the remake of BSG. Also it still isn't. Social Commentary is supposed to analyze both the good and bad of all sides and let the viewer decide whats right and whats wrong. Disney Wars does no such thing. Disney Wars is obviously veering to the far left. The message is clear. Liberals= good, Conservatives= bad. At that point it's just blatant propaganda that the suits want to shove in everyone's face. As far as the good vs evil coin, Disney Wars offers nothing new to the conversation.
Rose: Rose was an extremely worthless character. She had even less purpose than Jar Jar. What she did in her last scene made no sense in the story. She was like some stupid fan girl who stalked the one who shes fan girling over. What Finn was trying to do would've actually giving his character some growth. he was going to sacrifice to save the people he loved. Instead he had this dumb bitch crash into him, which probably would've realistically killed both of them, then they gave the FO the chance to blow open the gate. If there wasn't a stupid Deus Fox Machina, she would've destroyed the rebellion. The philosophy she spouted was also pure nonsense. "If you kill them, they win." was what her reasoning was. It was absolutely nonsensical, in the context of the story. She said "You need to protect the people you love." Which is exactly what he was doing.. But the writers for the prequels are even worse than GL writing dialogue.
Mary Sue: I don't think you know what a Mary Sue is. Watch the Star Trek: TOS episode called Mary Sue. Anakin/Luke are nowhere near mary sues. They have character development, they don't do everything magically and if they do there is a backstory reason. Rey is the child of fuckin crackheads. Anakin was created straight from the force by Plageus, Luke is Anakins son. Both of them are deeply flawed. Anakin cant handle his emotions, Luke fucks everything up. Rey doesnt fuck anything up. She never tried to save han Solo, she just watched, wtf does that thing about her parents not make her a mary sue? Kylo ren pushes her or talks to her with the force. so what. Lukes character was just completely fucked and he wasnt even himself or a universally acceptable version of an aged luke. Oh no she goes into a hole thats basically the cave on dagobah, the dark side just completely took over her.... Ben Solo is not dead, the writers are fuckin morons and cant write his character.
Character development. No she doesnt. She went through a tiny bit off screen, but her CD in TLJ is the equivalent of doing a side quest on Fallout and TES. No CD. Honestly having her parents be crackheads is just awful writing. Sure its possible to be ultra powerful and not be related to someone special. But she has literally been trained for a fucking day, she was able to mind control without learning anything about the force and the day of training is fucking what realistically? basics in the real world?

i will add the last half later when i can finish this.

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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptyThu Mar 15, 2018 10:06 pm

While I can't say outright that the Disney is doing a better job than the old EU I also can't say the reverse. Disney has only been putting out content for the past few years vs the EU which has had years of growth with as many crappy bits as good bits. Disney hasn't released their trilogy yet and as such can not release New cannon content that reveals major information which I am not saying is a good thing, I hate it personally, however, I understand that's the reason and it cannot be avoided. You could argue that they could do a story in a completely different time period that wouldn't interfere with the current situation but they are trying to build up this time period which is also a good business strategy which you can say is greedy but they are a business and need to make money on the 4 billion they spent on the franchise.

The statement that Disney is ruining Star Wars is ludcrous to me because we are coming from the prequels being the last cannon thing. The notion that the EU was canon is just false and if your argument is that you could pick your canon then you still can. With Disney, nearly all new content will likely be cannon and with Disney managing it it will mean that it should be mostly coherent and link together.

As for the movies and their characters, I am mixed, for example, I love Kylo Ren but hate Finn and I love the direction of the old protagonists but hate the direction of the Last Jedi as a whole.
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PostSubject: Re: EU>Disney   EU>Disney EmptySat Jun 02, 2018 5:09 am

Force Unleased was the first non-lego Star Wars game I'd ever played, and it was pretty old when I played it on my PS2. I friggin loved it, and it was advertised as being cannon, with some saying it was done with George Lucas's help. It really sucks for them to say it never happened, although I do hear many people hated the second, although it's totally worth it for this Robot Chicken sketch


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