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 [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]

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nichoice

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PostSubject: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptyThu Dec 28, 2017 5:21 am

TLJ was to me a great movie, was it a great SW Movie? No. Was it a great movie though? Yes.

[SPOILERS AHEAD]

There were several major flaws in the film, one being the use of cheap laughs. Most noticeably in the scene where Husk was repeating Ren's commands and actor Adam Driver seemingly gives him a 'look'.

That scene was intense, it was the culmination of everything that Ren wanted, the revenge he so craved from Luke and yet the comedy just shattered it to pieces.

Second flaw was the lack of character development, Fin was severely underused, though he had alot of screentime his side-arc was all rather pointless. In the first movie you saw Fin go from a deserter to a hero of the republic (choosing to save Rey etc.), whereas in the second movie he seemingly did shit all? And apparently he has mopped every essential base of the First Order.

O and don't even get me started with putting the Asian Chick with the Black Guy, some Disney exec must have that it would be a brilliant idea to put the two minorities together in the name of diversity. I didn't see any chemistry there, and that forced chemistry between Poe and Rey ehhhhhhh.

Snoke. *Sigh* Not even gonna......

Though one thing I disagree with my fellow SW Fans is the way Luke was treated in the Movie. Many have argued that what Luke did to Ben was out of character, however I don't.

Luke was seemingly the last Jedi after the original trilogy with little to no training. He in my mind was ill equipped to be Jedi Master. Like Luke said in the movie he let the hubris of his title takeover and he thought if not him than who.

That is why he left to find the first Jedi temple, he learnt from his mistakes and learnt that he was inadequate. He finally understood his failures and apologized to Ben.  

Him suddenly going poof *Jedi Force Ghost* was another meh moment just like force Leia but I wouldn't say that it was anything far fetched. Perhaps they could of alluded to his deteriorating health the way Yoda was when Luke found him prior to poof?

I was however surprised that it was Yoda whom appeared before him though, and not his father or Obiwan. Seeing as Obiwan would've been alot closer to Luke than Yoda but it could be a actor thing.

So what do you think of TLJ? Did you like it? What didn't you likE about it?

One more thing to add is that Rey reminds me alot of Bastila Shan. The same conflicted yet strong willed personality the way she found herself when she started falling for Revan, i.e. finally understanding the Kylo in Ben Solo.

Now that she has no lightsaber, I really really really want her to have a double sided yellow saber. She fought with a staff all her life, it would only make sense for her to construct her own double sided saber.
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lordniti2

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptyThu Dec 28, 2017 1:37 pm

I liked the movie, its an improvement over TFA there were a few things I didn't like about the movie and I do not like Rose at all she didn't really contribute anything in the movie and her reasoing for saving Finn at the end was dumb. I like Rey more than I did in TFA.

I liked and disliked Snoke's death, I liked Snoke's death because instead of final battle against the big bad boss like we had in ROTJ we now have the final battle against the student that betrayed him along with the Knights of Ren and I disliked Snoke's death because it happened before we got any answers about him it would have been nice if we found out abit about him.

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Brigamer

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptyThu Dec 28, 2017 7:28 pm

Well seeing how I'm always discussing this topic with my friends over lunch for the past week, I might as well share some of my personal thoughts about the film in this thread. And I apologize in advance for the length of this post as with this topic I can be quite long winded.

Firstly, before I get in to my personal pros and cons about the film, a little background about myself to help explain my rationale. Ever since I was a kid, one of the first proper series I read was the old star wars novels and thus I have been an avid fan of the old expanded universe of Star Wars. From time of warring Imperial Warlords to Thrawn to the New Jedi Order series. I have voraciously read any novel I could get my hands on of the EU. So to say I'm really passionate

For the most part, I enjoyed a lot of the new ship designs that we got to see in the film with one glaring exception.

The new Resistance bombers. Their design seems to be a mix of the B-wing and the real world B-17 "Flying Fortress" however this new design just wouldn't really be that viable in application as a bomber. These ponderous craft suffer the same flaw that the Slave I has. It has too large of a profile that would make it an easy target for enemy star-fighters and ship point-defense turrets. It trades the old Y-wing's sleek profile and speed for a higher capacity of munitions and perhaps "tougher" shielding, but it's still overall a slowly moving large target that any star-fighter pilot worth their salt can easily take out. Frankly it baffles my mind that over the course of years of technological developments that have been made since the Battle of Endor; this new bomber is the culmination of all the work instead of improved variants of the Y-wing or specialized variants of the B-wing that doesn't lose it's speed.

Now switching gears to talk about the story.

Why didn't Admiral Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was? His request wasn't unreasonable and out of line. Just someone asking for what the plan was and how he could help. But instead Holdo decided lambaste Poe as a hot-headed jockey and told him to man his post. I'm sorry but why? What was stopping Holdo from saying," Hey there's a nearby planet that used to be an old rebel base that we can hold up in while we wait for reinforcements, but we can't jump to hyperspace to get there in order to save fuel for the transports. Thus we have to maintain our current course."

All in all, this aspect was just a pointless baffling excuse to have conflict where logically none should have happened.

As the OP stated about Fin's story arc. The entire story could've been cut and the film would not have dragged on in the middle as some critics have voiced and I personally felt. The major reason for Fin's story arc was probably to establish the fact that there is new generation of force sensitive children out in the galaxy.

Del Toro's character was a fine addition and I would have liked to see more of, but I felt his showing Fin that the galaxy is morally grey a little heavy handed. I appreciate the attempt as morally grey characters are leaps and bounds more enjoyable than the good and evil tropes. However I wished they could have presented this message with more, for a lack of a better term, grace.

Luke's portrayal was both a hit and miss for me. While I wanted the EU Jedi Master Luke Skywalker to show off his power that he's gained over the course of decades worth of training. The Luke we get in the film was an interesting take. If the film was focused on the main plot and this subplot, while scrapping Fin's side arc, then we might have had more time to explore the full rationale of Luke character.

For many people, the last time they got to see Luke was a calm, collected and resolved man who wanted to prove that his father still had good in him. This ordeal, while taxing, should have given Luke the strength to continue no matter what. So to see Luke return but completely changed with precious little time to explain fully everything he went through. The audience who were expecting to see their Luke saw instead a stranger. Again this boils down to time management. If they had reallocated time to split the focus between the fleet's escaping and Luke training Rey, instead of splitting off between, the fleet, Rey and Fin's trip to Space Los Vegas. Then perhaps not only would the pacing improve, but the film would have more time to present Luke's character motivations and reasons.

Snoke's death was a mixed bag for me.

Much like lordniti2 said. His death came before we could really get any questions about his character answered. What was his origins? Who was he? Did he remember to get milk from Tosche Station when he went to get grocceries last sunday? We just don't know and frankly it's beyond an understatement to say I was disappointed.

As for Husk. I just have one question. Why does anyone under his command even have a modicum of respect to carry out his orders. Captain Moden Canady, who was the captain of the Dreadnought Fulminatrix we see in the film, carried more respect and he was only onscreen for maybe five to ten minutes. What I'm getting at is, with how open Snoke and Ren are with physically abusing or tossing around Husk infront of his own men. Why do any of them even pretend Husk has any power? Husk's treatment by Snoke and Ren are just for the audience's entertainment nothing more. When Vader was displeased with an officer's failure. He simply killed him and replaced him. When Grand Admiral Thrawn was displeased with an officer's failure, he gave them a second chance to improve but only killed when he had to. Vader commanded with fear while Thrawn commanded with the love and admiration of his crew. Husk has none of these traits or any traits that would have marked him as a leader. Heck, Husk's second-in-command carries more authority than Husk.

I guess what I'm getting at is so far this trilogy has done very little to show Husk has any of the qualities or skills to be in command of the First Order's military and, for me personally, each time the films have him be the whipping boy for the Supreme Commander, it takes away from the film.


Despite my criticisms, I still enjoyed the film and wouldn't call it the worst. However it's somewhere in the middle. It had plenty of potential to be splendid, but it just fell short due to bad time management. If the film had split the focus between the main action of the Resistance fleeing from the First Order and Rey's training with Luke. The film would have avoided appearing to run on in the middle of the film. In addition, with more of the focus on the training of Rey, there could've been a great chance to do a better job of exploring the mysticism and mysteries of the Force. Despite my personal grudges with the prequel films, Revenge of the Sith managed to capture the mysticism beautifully with the Opera house scene with Palpatine and Anakin. A scene in a similar style of Luke fully explaining the deep intricacies of the Force would've been similar amazing.

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptyTue Jan 16, 2018 1:13 am

[SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  A5b
Feels like sweetened surtstremming: better that The "Rogue" and "Awakening", yet far worse, than even Phantom Menace. SW is dead. Literally.

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"Dis`ne [ di:s-NEI ] (swear word) - smb, spitting on his legacy, culture, accomplishement and national values" (с) NyanComissar; fixed transcription by me.
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MadGAD

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptyWed Jan 17, 2018 10:44 am

In my opinion, the whole thing is not such a bad, but only if you rmove the "Star Wars" label. In other case, as a Star Wars franchise, it is a greatest piece of s**t. As dumb as f**k. Wet fantasies of SJW and children's dream - Children\teenagers against Empire (worse than big-headed SW Rebels cartoon series), children force users (enslaved children in goat-horse pens) who do not know who us Jedi, teenage fatty asian girl with it's own complexies and phobies who do not know how to talk with guys but saves her beloved alpha-male Finn and kisses him and dramatically fall down... Jokes about mum, one hero against one dreadnaught, pink hair strong wymen, Mary Sue, Super-Lea and all this shit.
Another thing is how do they f**ked up all their fleet and more than 400+ crewmembers - thanks to strong wymen without an adequate planning, killed Akbar, lost escort ships with their captains (seasoned fighters, loyal and experienced! Why Because they are males?). Full so high full of bullshit that it is pain in head and ass to sit and see it in cinema.
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FafnirEtherion

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptyWed Jan 17, 2018 9:48 pm

I don't really have the time to devellop further, but I'll say this : I think that Star Wars : The Last Jedi is the BEST Star Wars movie ever made.

This is my honest opinion and I'm very proud of it ^^ ! I'm kinda sad that other people didn't liked it as much as I did ( and that's an understatement XDDDD )

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Major_Tumanov

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptySat Jan 20, 2018 1:37 am

@FafnirEtherion wrote:
I don't really have the time to devellop further, but I'll say this : I think that Star Wars : The Last Jedi is the BEST Star Wars movie ever made.

This is my honest opinion and I'm very proud of it ^^ ! I'm kinda sad that other people didn't liked it as much as I did ( and that's an understatement XDDDD )

Поздравляю тебя, Шарик - ты говноед! Congratulations!
-----------------
Congratulations, dude - you`re quite not a smart person.

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"Dis'ne [dees-NEY] (ругательство), кто-то плюющий на свое наследие, культуру, воспитание и национальные ценности" (цэ) NyanComissar
"Dis`ne [ di:s-NEI ] (swear word) - smb, spitting on his legacy, culture, accomplishement and national values" (с) NyanComissar; fixed transcription by me.
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MadGAD

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptySat Jan 20, 2018 2:22 pm

@Major_Tumanov wrote:

Поздравляю тебя, Шарик - ты говноед! Congratulations!
-----------------
Congratulations, dude - you`re quite not a smart person.

Ну, что поделать, может быть он копрофил? Может быть, нравится ему самозавбенно отдаваться бездне нечистот? А может ему Злой Чёрный Мышь занёс чемоданчик баксов. И тем не менее, по сети бродит такой говношторм, что даже тамошние альт-леваки и фемки не в восторге и клеймят фильм черезчур феминистским. Хоть ОЗК надевай.
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Well, it's his choice and his opinion. Maybe he was bought by "Evil Black Mouse"s cases of dollars as many net critics who love that movie. Who knows?
Anyway, there is such a sh*tstorm over the net, that even some american Alt-Rights and 4th-gen-feminists call this movie a bad thing and too feminist. Better to put on your hazard suits.
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IRORIEH

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptySat Jan 20, 2018 2:40 pm

I honestly liked the movie. I don't think it was the greatest Star Wars film, but it definitely put a new spin on things. It reminded me a lot of KOTOR series, with the way it took a more dark look at the franchise, and the jedi themselves.

I don't get the hate for Luke in the film. It made perfect sense to me. If Luke was an all powerful Jedi badass like people wanted him to be, then there wouldn't be a first order to begin with. They needed some conflict of character in order to have something to develop. his story reminded me a lot of Jolee Bindo, which is a plus for me.

That said, I have my issues with the film. I don't get why they had that admiral woman die in that awesome space collision instead of Leia, which would have been a better send off for a major character than just writing her out offscreen like will probably happen in IX. Though you can't really blame them for that considering they weren't planning on a major actor passing away mid trilogy.

I honestly didn't sit there during the film and think it was aimed at spreading SJW propaganda or something, and honestly even discussing that makes me slightly nervous because it's not a debate anyone will win. I know people complain about things like Rey being a mary sue (so is Luke Skywalker, Tyrion Lannister, etc... by authors own admissions as well, this isn't a new thing, authors often write a character they want to be), but I'm assuming that there's some thread that will be connected to explain this, we're only on the second film. I just watched it as a Star Wars film. It was fun. Not a 10/10 or even a 9. maybe a 7? or an 8. But yeah, realistically it's a film designed to make money hand over fist. Which it did.

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Wertologist

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptySat Jan 20, 2018 9:51 pm

I was disappointed and at some points, disgusted. It was a little better than TFA, but not by much at all. They kept trying to force the Disney Humor into it. The kind of humor you'd find in one of their Marvel movies. That humor doesn't fit in Star Wars at all. Like when Luke threw the lightsaber away after a serious staredown. That made me cringe.

My main issue with the movie was Rey. She's a Mary Sue of the highest caliber. She is so powerful and skilled without any explanation whatsoever. She improved her skills so much more, but really had no training. The closest she got to training was Luke telling her to sit on a rock for about 2 minutes and then the next day she swung the lightsaber at a rock for a few minutes....and now she suddenly can go toe to toe with Kylo in force ability? Her knowing any amount of force control and ability is never explained whatsoever. She just magically knows it and pretty much becomes a master of it right then and there. Anakin was powerful too, but he had to train about 10 years to be able to do basic force shit and he still got his ass handed to him by Dooku in Ep II. Luke got a few months of training in and was barely able to pull his lightsaber to him. He then later spent roughly a month or so doing strict training under Yoda and still got his ass handed to him by Vader. It wasn't until after Empire that he got back to real training and honed his skills some more, but he still wasn't astronomical like Vader or the Emperor. Rey is just powerful and skilled for no real reason. And when I say powerful and skilled, I mean them separately. I know the movie says that the force balances shit out(even though that contradicts everything we've seen before), but power =/= skill. Anakin was extremely powerfu, but it wasn't until he trained that he could use his power. Rey just does it. She has practically no training and is somehow on par wit Kylo who had years of real training under Luke and Snoke. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't even explain how she manages to escape the fucking flagship unnoticed. It's not like it's a simple cruiser. It was Snoke's personal flag ship full of heavily armed troops.

Then there was the whole side story with the asian girl and Finn. It was so out of place and felt like a forced PETA plotline. It could have removed from the movie and had no real impact. Then the whole part about her kissing him really shocked me because I saw absolutely no romantic chemistry or anything hinting towards it. It was really out of nowhere. There was also the part where she stopped him from sacrificing himself even though it would have stopped the machine. While it worked out, it only did so because Luke popped up. they had no idea Luke was going to show up so for all they knew, that machine was going to kill them. She sabotaged his plan and it would have left them stranded in a giant open field in direct LOS of all those FO troops and walkers.

That's another thing I had issue with. The vehicles. They look like bootleg Empire vehicles. I could excuse the rip-off armor and maybe the Star Destroyers, but the AT-AT ripoffs were too much. They just slapped "evil red glass" over the windows and that was it.

Another issue I had was that pink haired bitch. So much could have been avoided had she simply told them what her plan was rather than menacingly withhold it for no reason other than to provoke Poe and instigate a mutiny. Then she decides to crash her ship into the destroyers to prevent them from shooting the escape ships, but why she didn't plant the ship it the LOF right off the bat is beyond me.

Then there was the issue with the overall plot. The entire movie was pretty much just one space battle. A space battle that could have been ended very quickly had the FO just kept shooting. They stopped because they had shields, but they aren't invincible. Shields will break with enough hits and the FO had a whole fleet at their disposal. The FO would have won right off the bat had they not stopped firing. What, were they trying to conserve ammo? Wouldn't killing Leia and other major Rebellion leaders be worth a few bits of ammo? It makes no sense.

Then I hated how they treated Luke. Luke was a great character who developed into a Jedi Master....and then they turned him into a pessimistic hermit. He went from "I can save Vader because everyone can be saved" to "lol i can't save my nephew because he talked to some evil dude". And then they just killed him. Not even in a good way. He just dies. It's implied that he used too much force or something, but we have never seen anyone show any sign of exhaustion from force use aside from him. We saw him become exhausted in Empire, but that was because he simply didn't know how to properly use the force and probably though physical exertion would help....and he was also running around a muggy swamp.

They finally show Snoke outside of a hologram. They built him up to be this super powerful evil ruler....and he just turned Emperor 2.0 and was killed rather quickly. No real explanation as to who he was. Just that he was ruler of the FO and a Sith. That's as much as we knew in TFA. No new information of this supposedly very important character. Then they have him just being stupid. Who would think it's a good idea to keep insulting the guy who work under you who obviously is struggling with his opinion on you. Especially when he is very powerful/skilled and you let him be armed in the same room as you.

I thought the movie was bad. They ruined characters. They somehow made Rey worse. The only characters I saw promise in were Kylo and Finn because they each have flaws and show progression. The rest really don't. Rey is practically flawless. Asian girl is so dull and flat I didn't even care enough to remember her name.

On a side note, people always point out that TFA is essentially New Hope 2.0. I agree with that as they are very similar. But what a lot of people haven't really noticed was how similar TLJ was to Empire. It's like Empire's plot in reverse. The Salt planet looks very similar to Hoth even. Except it's salt instead of snow. The Walkers are marching to the door/shield. Troops are lined up in trenches. Rebels send out ships to destroy them. That whole battle was the Battle of Hoth 2.0. The parts with Rey Kylo with Snoke is somewhat similar to Empire's Vader v Luke part, but is more akin to ROTJ. It's more like an exact ripoff of ROTJ's Emperor parts, but the only difference is the fight scene takes place after the Emperor dies.

I really don't have any hope for the last one. TFA was New Hope 2.0 and just bad. RO was also bad. TLJ was only slightly better than TFA. I think the only parts that made it better were Luke's fight and the Kylo fight with the royal guards. The rest was just bad.
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Implying

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PostSubject: Re: [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]    [SPOILERS AHEAD] SW:TLJ Discussion [SPOILERS AHEAD]  EmptySat Jan 20, 2018 11:35 pm

I pretty much agree with everything @Wertologist said so props to him. But I'd like to throw my hat in and talk why TLJ is pretty crap.

First of all the ship battles make no sense in comparison to all of the previous space battles we've seen . Why were the bombers slowly making their way towards the FO ships when we've had V (?) Wings being able to bomb enemy ships at a decent range for at the very, very least, 50 years. Also why didn't the FO ships just move out of the way, that would be quite effective as not being destroyed goes.

Plus why were the FO shields down when Holdo decided to light speed ram them (the plausibility of such is something I'm unsure of, but I doubt it's a thing that can happen.) It simply doesn't make sense for them to not have their shields up, another rebel attack could have warped in or the rebels could have sent out a fighter squadron as a last ditch defense.

It still hasn't been explained why the FO are so strong anyway, and what a ridiculous idea that because Kylo has got stronger his 'rival' in the 'light' gets arbitrarily stronger.

Overall I don't like the film or anything of the new Star Wars. Legends (the old EU) makes the current 'canon' pale in comparison to greats like Dark Empire, the Thrawn Trilogy, the Darth Bane trilogy, the entirety of The Old Republic and many other fantastic stories.

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