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 (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion

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mpaz96



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:28 am

I just did the final mission with The Minutemen and I don't know, when it comes to morallity, this is the best ending, but as a game, doing it with the BoS it was much funner.

@maybenexttime Hey man, I believe what Tesvixen said it's that it isn't wrong to kill Super Mutants and Feral Ghouls that are obviously bad, but there are some ghouls and super mutants that are actually nice and the BoS don't see them like that, they see the general concept of what they are rather than the individual himself/herself.

@Tesvixen wrote:
And you conveniently seem to be forgetting that BOS is far more concerned with preserving technology than humanity. Elder Lyons' chapter of the BOS was the group concerned with helping people, and they were considered weak, pathetic, a failure of the Brotherhood, etc. That's the reason we ended up with the Outcasts - and even the Brotherhood in FO4 trashes Lyons' group for losing sight of the true mission, recovering tech.

This Brotherhood isn't like the BoS back west, they are kind of a combination between The Outcast and Lyons Pride. They do care about the people of The Commonwealth, they only have different ways to doing so, this chapter accepts anyone unlike the brotherhood from the west and they are only hoarding technology from people that don't know how to use it, when you finish The Institute with the Brotherhood, one of the Proctor (can't remember his name) congratulates you since you destroyed the information that The Institute possessed, he didn't care he didn't had that info because who would rather have it destroyed. You see, they aren't keeping tech for themselves, they actually care on how people use it, they do care about people overall.

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Tesvixen



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:17 am

@mpaz96 - I don't mean to imply that they don't give a damn, but rather that they wouldn't put locals before their mission as Lyons did.  They express that recovering and preserving technology is their mission, first and foremost, and as I mentioned they criticize Lyons for going soft and expending so much effort to help the locals in FO3.  

That along with their attitude toward non-humans was enough for me to not be 100% on board with them.
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mpaz96



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:19 am

@Tesvixen Yeah, I get what you're saying but The Institute has that same attitude against everyone outside their posse. I also believe The Institute hates Ghouls and Super Mutants as well, although I don't have any solid proof haha.

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Tesvixen



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:34 am

Oh trust me, I'm not fully on board with the Institute either.  

The thing is... I was fully ready to join the BOS, use their resources to find the Institute and turn the place into another Glowing Sea - until I learned the truth about Shaun.  As a parent in real life, I sort of project that aspect of myself onto my character when I'm playing her.    

However twisted some of the things the Institute does may be, his being my son complicates the decision of how to handle them.  It gives me pause and makes me think more about the factions, how they each deal with things.

Honestly its a credit to Bethesda that we're even having a conversation like this about a game.  I didn't even think this hard on key decisions in Mass Effect, being a Paragon made almost all of them easy.
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maybenexttime



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:34 am

Shame there is no "Republic of Dave" because if there was, you can guess which faction I'd belong in.

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stfdmn



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:04 pm

@Tesvixen You are correct, some people in the Institute are decent folks. But you can save those decent folks first before bombing the hell out of that infested hole (Doctor Li for example). Im not saying destroy everything before having the chance to see for yourself what's what. But even after understanding what the Institute is all about (all that Greater Good stuff reminds me of WH40K Tau and I despise Tau), you still can't justify their actions.

All my rant was not related to gameplay and the FO4 game itself. It was exclusively based on your character's backstory (lawyer or army veteran), and his/her motives for going out in the wasteland. Sure, gameplay wise we can just be evil and do whatever we want (altho' in FO4 pure evil is not really a choice). I am on my 3rd character now and I cant really find any Minutemen's skeletons. They do seem to be genuinely good, decent folk.

@maybenexttime You are killing hostile Super Mutants and feral ghouls, as someone said before. While Super Mutants are not all bad (there's like.. once exception?), ferals are gone, they can't be reason with anymore. You're basically killing wild animals at this point.

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SaturnCeleste



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:58 pm

There have been some great discussions presented here! Since this is a spoiler thread, I can discuss my observation openly. Even though there are 4 endings, there's only ONE outcome. War never changes. No matter how much we worry about ethics and morals, the game will have it's own way with us and that's the big boom.

The way I play, there is only one choice for me. BoS = Paladin Danse.

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Grimmex



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:21 pm

I finally beat it yesterday and i wasn't really too torn between deciding on the institute or the other factions. No matter what their reasoning, replacing people with synthetic versions of themselves is just plain wrong. I ended up choosing to side with the Brotherhood because even though they can be quite hard headed, they do eventually want what is best for the commonwealth (elimination of the institute, mutants, and ghouls). My next playthrough will surely be with the railroad because they also have a good cause, but are quite small in numbers and wouldn't make a huge impact.

The minutemen...well, they don't have much to offer besides basically being regulators like in fallout 3. That's my take on it anyways.

I do wish there would be an option to at least unite the BoS, Minutemen, and Railroad to take down the institute.

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pizzamonster94



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:06 pm

What if in post_FO4 BOS may undergo a change for better, thus really becoming the best change for survival, maybe even having Minutemen on their side aswell?

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alonewolf003



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:36 am

@pizzamonster94 wrote:
What if in post_FO4 BOS may undergo a change for better, thus really becoming the best change for survival, maybe even having Minutemen on their side aswell?

Highly unlikely, imo. I don't really see anything or any potential in the BoS in the Commonwealth to change for the "better", no motivations for them to be. If the BoS has ever done anything right, it's that their soldiers actually act like soldiers and strictly follow their codes. Otherwise, they are just a bunch of technology abusers and horders to me.

It seems valid to say they are corrupted as well. The BoS Elders seems to always have a disagreement in doing things, so I guess it's sooner or later a civil war would occur between the BoS(s).

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Dio Brando



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:39 pm

Just a reminder that everyone who didn't side with the Institute is going to become a puppet for my future experiments. I repeat, do not try to resist the fabulous glorious evolution!

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alonewolf003



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:50 am

@Dio Brando wrote:
Just a reminder that everyone who didn't side with the Institute is going to become a puppet for my future experiments. I repeat, do not try to resist the fabulous glorious evolution!

It's okay, I'll just blow you up, too, like I did with the BoS and the Institute (and the Railroad, if loads of grenades count). Cool

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Furente7



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:31 am

@alonewolf003 wrote:
@pizzamonster94 wrote:
What if in post_FO4 BOS may undergo a change for better, thus really becoming the best change for survival, maybe even having Minutemen on their side aswell?

Highly unlikely, imo. I don't really see anything or any potential in the BoS in the Commonwealth to change for the "better", no motivations for them to be. If the BoS has ever done anything right, it's that their soldiers actually act like soldiers and strictly follow their codes. Otherwise, they are just a bunch of technology abusers and horders to me.

It seems valid to say they are corrupted as well. The BoS Elders seems to always have a disagreement in doing things, so I guess it's sooner or later  a civil war would occur between the BoS(s).

I actually thought the same as you did, from the get-go with Fallout 1 up to NV even, but then Danse proved me otherwise. They weren't hording for the sake of hording or to get stronger or whatever, but they were saving us from ourselves. We are the ones that use technological advancements to destroy ourselves and they're stopping us from doing that. The good form of oppression.
Why they hate the Institute is because the Institute is exactly that. It's the pre-war fusion of RobCo, Vault Tec and all those other corporations that ultimately were the reason the world was brought down to its knees. It's the Great War all over again. Except the BoS are stopping it.
That being said, yes most of the BoS members are little more than military soldiers, and others even are quasi-religious with their technology hording.

But if the entire BoS was filled with people like Danse... This would all be a different story.

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Sklone



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:40 am

No faction is without there evils and most everyone hates the institute and has no good feelings about them until you meet father.
which is the reason he is put there i dont understand which made my head hurt because when i had to choose i didnt want to because I didnt want to have to kill Father but i hate the brotherhoods White power attitude if you get what i am saying with that haha.
and the railroad is good but they are creating evil aswell with having replicants free which i dont really know why i feel like thats bad but it doesnt seem right.
In the end Danses sacrifice for what he believed in made me feel as if i owed him and i carried on his legacy for the brotherhood. Damn this game and all of its emotional ties haha

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Furente7



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:42 am

@Sklone wrote:
No faction is without there evils and most everyone hates the institute and has no good feelings about them until you meet father.
which is the reason he is put there i dont understand which made my head hurt because when i had to choose i didnt want to because I didnt want to have to kill Father but i hate the brotherhoods White power attitude if you get what i am saying with that haha.
and the railroad is good but they are creating evil aswell with having replicants free which i dont really know why i feel like thats bad but it doesnt seem right.
In the end Danses sacrifice for what he believed in made me feel as if i owed him and i carried on his legacy for the brotherhood. Damn this game and all of its emotional ties haha

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alonewolf003



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:52 pm

@Furente7 wrote:
@alonewolf003 wrote:
@pizzamonster94 wrote:
What if in post_FO4 BOS may undergo a change for better, thus really becoming the best change for survival, maybe even having Minutemen on their side aswell?

Highly unlikely, imo. I don't really see anything or any potential in the BoS in the Commonwealth to change for the "better", no motivations for them to be. If the BoS has ever done anything right, it's that their soldiers actually act like soldiers and strictly follow their codes. Otherwise, they are just a bunch of technology abusers and horders to me.

It seems valid to say they are corrupted as well. The BoS Elders seems to always have a disagreement in doing things, so I guess it's sooner or later  a civil war would occur between the BoS(s).

I actually thought the same as you did, from the get-go with Fallout 1 up to NV even, but then Danse proved me otherwise. They weren't hording for the sake of hording or to get stronger or whatever, but they were saving us from ourselves. We are the ones that use technological advancements to destroy ourselves and they're stopping us from doing that. The good form of oppression.
Why they hate the Institute is because the Institute is exactly that. It's the pre-war fusion of RobCo, Vault Tec and all those other corporations that ultimately were the reason the world was brought down to its knees. It's the Great War all over again. Except the BoS are stopping it.
That being said, yes most of the BoS members are little more than military soldiers, and others even are quasi-religious with their technology hording.

But if the entire BoS was filled with people like Danse... This would all be a different story.

Danse is just a member of the BoS, he isn't an Elder, and last I heard, his own Elder wants to kill him because he's a synth regardless of his intentions, and doesn't seems to share the same view as him. Giving a faction too much power can easily lead to corruption, just as the Institute did. That and every time I walk past a BoS member "If you aren't Brotherhood, you're nothing". Pffft, arrogant pricks. closed eyes smile

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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:31 pm

Do note Danse could have been programmed to be a loyal person. As you know, the Institute even gave him childhood memories. So Danse being a nice and humble guy probably does't reflect his true personality or if he even has one. In fact, we wouldn't know if the Institute was using Danse as some sort of spy, perhaps watching through his eyes or somehow obtaining data. So the Elder getting enraged I thought was justified. Essentially he's been tricked for so long by a synth. Who knows how much intel was received by the Institute from Danse? Although I spared Danse because he's such a bullet sponge and a tank TongueTril

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John Henry Eden



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:22 am

I don´t think Danse was a spy of the insitute. If you atack the BoS on the airfield, he show up and be killed by you or synths. So not a institute spy.

In my opinion The minuteman and institue is the best .

The institute has his bad and god sides but if you are the direktor/replace father you have the control.
You can control what should hapen.

The minuteman are the good guys, they want to help the people. Remind me on the NCR ranger,
with the point that are much better than the NCR. I think that is how the NCR should be, help, protect, rebild. And not steal other thear stuf like in vegas.


Ironsides crew, ok this guys are not major faction but they still rock. The whole ship has more patriotism than the country i live in. And there in nothing better as to shot BoS with a old cannon.
"Who is your fancy technology now?" Sadly you have only one quest with them.
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alonewolf003



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PostSubject: Re: (MAJOR SPOILERS) Fallout 4 Factions Discussion   Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:19 pm

After reloading my older save and joining the Institute, I must say, it leaves something to be desired in me, about other factions I meant. There are so many interesting quests to do when you join the Institute, but not with the Minutemen (I'd not include the BoS since I haven't replay my old saves to join them, yet). All I get out of the Minutemen would be generic quests such as settlements require my attention that will keep re-generating forever. The only major and interesting quest the Minutemen has was re-taking the Castle.

And with you as the General of the Minutemen, it doesn't quite feel like you are the General at all. It's always Preston calling the shots. You can't manage your men, you can't exactly tell them what to do, you can't outfit them, etc... I hope Bethesda introduces something like this/more than this, along with their future planned DLCs for this game.

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