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 Brotherhood vs Enclave

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tonyman210



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PostSubject: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:37 pm

I have to say the Brotherhood of Steel, the armor looks better in my opinion and they don't shoot at me on sight.
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DimDim009



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:33 pm

Im gonna agree with the Brotherhood, especially since one of the guys in the Enclave has my name Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:30 pm

I dont know really but it depends i like them both after that a thing i saw a about the Brotherhood i cant get back to it which leaves with me with the Enclave.

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Reactorcore



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:33 pm

I don't know the full story behind the Enclave, but the Brotherhood in NV is a bunch of asshats. FO3's branch of the BOS has my support all the way though.

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thesmallprint



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:41 pm

You're not supposed to like the Enclave. They are set up to be demonised, I mean they are pretty much what many people fear theri governments will become (especially in the US): an authoritarian, brutal, murderous regime led by (literally) soulless leaders, constantly playing on peoples' ideas of patriotism and the good-old-boy lifestyle of the olden days so that people will ignore all the murdering they are doing of people who want to rule themselves.

The BoS in Fallout 3 is not really representative of the whole organisation, as they have defected in order to help the locals to survive the super-mutant infestation. It's pretty clear cut, and made more obvious by the radio stations: Three Dog's 'good fight' vs. Eden's constant paternal-intellectual talking down to the wastelanders.

Oh, and the fact that the Enclave pretty much go around killing people and causing your father to kill himself. And of course it's their fault that there's a wasteland in the first place: as the remnants of the government that was in power during the nuclear war that pretty much ended civilisation.
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snakyaxe



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:07 pm

i like the brotherhood though it is a shame there roe, isn't as large in NV as opposed to FO3. Hopefully the make a big appearance for FO4
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thesmallprint



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:09 pm

@snakyaxe wrote:
i like the brotherhood though it is a shame there roe, isn't as large in NV as opposed to FO3. Hopefully   the make a big appearance for FO4

Sure, but you realise that the Brotherhood itself is not like they are in FO3. In that, the Outcasts are the only ones who are actually loyal to the ideals of the Brotherhood: basically pillaging technology from the wasteland and not giving a damn about anyone else unless they can either directly help them (in which case they'll just verbally abuse them until they're done and then ditch them) or are trying to take the technology for themselves (in which case they'll kill them).
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alonewolf003



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:47 pm

The BoS is corrupted, the most of it. All that's unique to them is wearing Power Armor + laser guns(which lots of vendors sell these days), they looked too much at the past and not moving forward.
While the Enclave also got power armors, and also invented even better variants, they also got Vertibirds, freakin' nuclear shoot down from space, all the BoS has uniquely to them is Liberty Prime, which is still broken for all we know.

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The Red Shoe



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:28 pm

Both of the societies are corrupt in their own ways. I would have to choose the Enclave. While the BoS is trying to help people in Fallout 3 you can trace their origins back out west and see that they truly only care about themselves. While the enclave isn't doing it right they are trying to make the waste land better. Both are doing it the wrong way. But I'd have to choose the Enclave, Personal reasons....

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snakyaxe



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:33 pm

@thesmallprint wrote:
@snakyaxe wrote:
i like the brotherhood though it is a shame there roe, isn't as large in NV as opposed to FO3. Hopefully   the make a big appearance for FO4

Sure, but you realise that the Brotherhood itself is not like they are in FO3. In that, the Outcasts are the only ones who are actually loyal to the ideals of the Brotherhood: basically pillaging technology from the wasteland and not giving a damn about anyone else unless they can either directly help them (in which case they'll just verbally abuse them until they're done and then ditch them) or are trying to take the technology for themselves (in which case they'll kill them).
Yeah when you put it like that the BoS are a bunch of asshole lol. Either way you look at both the Enclave and the Brotherhood have their own agendas guess you have to choose the lesser of two evils.
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thesmallprint



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:03 am

@The Red Shoe wrote:
Both of the societies are corrupt in their own ways. I would have to choose the Enclave. While the BoS is trying to help people in Fallout 3 you can trace their origins back out west and see that they truly only care about themselves. While the enclave isn't doing it right they are trying to make the waste land better. Both are doing it the wrong way. But I'd have to choose the Enclave, Personal reasons....

That depends very much on your definition of 'better'. I mean, the plan was to wipe out the entire population of the wasteland and repopulate it with Enclave people. If you actually do it, the epilogue says that it leads to the deaths of 96% of the population. Honestly? f*** the enclave.
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The Red Shoe



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:56 am

@thesmallprint You'd just have to find out yourself my friend. Ask @boombewm and He'll show you. Honestly I'd rather not have either of them but I feel like both of them would lead to mass murder and death of innocent people. No one is right in the situation. Just a matter of opinion.

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arbiter1742



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:20 am

Both have noble goals, aiming for the return of civilization; one wants to save the population, the other wants to save technology. Ultimately, both are going at it in the wrong way. Both organizations build an image for itself that draws from different organizations from history, both to cover up its 'means to an end' mentality. Both organizations are stuck in the past, trying to pull the world back to the way it was before rather than building a new one out of the wastes.

Both the Enclave and the Brotherhood should really compare notes. Then maybe they can actually do some good.

That aside, I don't believe that any single organization in Fallout is supposed to be 'good'. Sure, it's pretty clear which one you are supposed to support, but under it all there is almost not one organization that's completely good. Either the goals are bad, or the strategy to achieve those goals are bad.

Then there are organizations who are actually doing good, for good, like the Followers of the Apocalypse. And, of course, they are not exactly thriving.

Come to think of it, Fallout is a very cynical series.
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ShiftyDragon



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:48 am

Long live the Brotherhood! I don't really care about the fundamental ideals of each group, I just hate the way the enclave armor looks. It looks too... buggy. Or piggy if we're talking FO3. I like the brotherhood armor when it's retextured by Midian.

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thesmallprint



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:04 am

@arbiter1742 wrote:
Both have noble goals, aiming for the return of civilization; one wants to save the population, the other wants to save technology.

But the Enclave wants to eliminate the population, not save it. They want to restore the nation: the same nation that led to the war in the first place - and their means to do that is through a blank slate: kill everyone who's not one of them (or a 'pure' human from the Vaults) and start again. That is not a noble goal at all.

The BoS itself are just tech hoarders hoping to have the best guns to secure their own place, but the Capitol Wasteland's Brotherhood are an exception, since they actually tried to help people other than themselves. Sure, they have their own motives of power and strength, but they do not directly attempt to control anyone, far as I saw: they leave Rivet City and Megaton etc. to govern themselves. As such, it's pretty clear who a 'good' player is going to side with, unlike, say, Skyrim, where you choose between the proto-fascists or the puppet imperialists. In fact, given the Thalmor presence, make that proto-fascists and actual fascists.

I actually like the NCR in NV for their relative believability: they are on the whole decent, but they *are* invading other peoples' lands to seize strategic resources, and exporting settlers who make trouble with the locals.
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arbiter1742



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:31 am

@thesmallprint wrote:
But the Enclave wants to eliminate the population, not save it. They want to restore the nation: the same nation that led to the war in the first place - and their means to do that is through a blank slate: kill everyone who's not one of them (or a 'pure' human from the Vaults) and start again. That is not a noble goal at all.

The BoS itself are just tech hoarders hoping to have the best guns to secure their own place, but the Capitol Wasteland's Brotherhood are an exception, since they actually tried to help people other than themselves. Sure, they have their own motives of power and strength, but they do not directly attempt to control anyone, far as I saw: they leave Rivet City and Megaton etc. to govern themselves. As such, it's pretty clear who a 'good' player is going to side with, unlike, say, Skyrim, where you choose between the proto-fascists or the puppet imperialists. In fact, given the Thalmor presence, make that proto-fascists and actual fascists.

I actually like the NCR in NV for their relative believability: they are on the whole decent, but they *are* invading other peoples' lands to seize strategic resources, and exporting settlers who make trouble with the locals.

Actually, the Enclave do want to save the population, by destroying all the deem as 'mutants'. Unfortunately, their definition of the word includes anyone who have been exposed to radiation, as that's how ghouls and super mutants are created. In essence, they do want to save humanity; they are just too extreme.

Their technology does prove them right, though. The formula Eden gives you kills all mutants. You were born outside, so you are considered a mutant. In other words, exposure to radiation from birth does make you a mutant, to a greater or lesser extent.

Whether this is a noble goal or not might be up for interpretation. A blank slate might be better in the long run for humanity's evolution and continuation than mutant genes.

And, I can see why a good player would want to side with the BoS in F3. Even a bad player would want to side with them, as siding with the Enclave means your death.
But the Brotherhood in F3 does not follow the Brotherhood doctrine. The main body's goal is to save humanity's advancement - that is, technology. They don't really care about saving individual settlements. They don't even bother sharing some of their technology even if it might do good. Not controlling anyone does not really mean much when you just leave them to their fates. Note that I am talking about the Brotherhood as a whole, rather than just the branch in F3.

Of course, you are supposed to like one of them over the other, because the game tells you to like that organization. But if the game didn't do that, your opinion would be based entirely on your situation - like not liking the Enclave because you will die if you help them. Look at them from an unbiased but informed point of view, though, and none of the organizations are really more likeable or detestable than the others.

And you've said it yourself with the NCR. Even the Legion has a good goal. But none of these organizations work in a noble manner, and those that do face massive problems. It's the old question of abandoning morals for survival and the greater good. As I've said, it is cynical, but that's better than black and white.
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ZombieRedNeck



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:44 am

@arbiter1742 wrote:


Actually, the Enclave do want to save the population, by destroying all the deem as 'mutants'. Unfortunately, their definition of the word includes anyone who have been exposed to radiation, as that's how ghouls and super mutants are created. In essence, they do want to save humanity; they are just too extreme.

Their technology does prove them right, though. The formula Eden gives you kills all mutants. You were born outside, so you are considered a mutant. In other words, exposure to radiation from birth does make you a mutant, to a greater or lesser extent.

Whether this is a noble goal or not might be up for interpretation. A blank slate might be better in the long run for humanity's evolution and continuation than mutant genes.

And, I can see why a good player would want to side with the BoS in F3. Even a bad player would want to side with them, as siding with the Enclave means your death.
But the Brotherhood in F3 does not follow the Brotherhood doctrine. The main body's goal is to save humanity's advancement - that is, technology. They don't really care about saving individual settlements. They don't even bother sharing some of their technology even if it might do good. Not controlling anyone does not really mean much when you just leave them to their fates. Note that I am talking about the Brotherhood as a whole, rather than just the branch in F3.

Of course, you are supposed to like one of them over the other, because the game tells you to like that organization. But if the game didn't do that, your opinion would be based entirely on your situation - like not liking the Enclave because you will die if you help them. Look at them from an unbiased but informed point of view, though, and none of the organizations are really more likeable or detestable than the others.

And you've said it yourself with the NCR. Even the Legion has a good goal. But none of these organizations work in a noble manner, and those that do face massive problems. It's the old question of abandoning morals for survival and the greater good. As I've said, it is cynical, but that's better than black and white.
I actaully agree completely with this.
The Enclave and The BrotherHood have their faults and FO3 didnt pursue them enough to make a completely biased choice in the end.
With New Vegas there was good and bad with joining either of the sides. And Frankly, its never a case of the lesser of three evils. House wants to remain independent(We can all agree that sounds good.) Kimbell wants to organise but basically drain the land of its resource. Plus his men can be racist and cruel to the mutants and people outside the republic. Legion is firm, but fair..(As long as your not a woman) to Traders and the common man, however its the rejection of the new world that is their downfall.
These are flaws outright expressed in NV. In Fallout 3 we hear all about the Jyngoist goals of the Enclave, but what about the greed and hoarding of the Brotherhood. If it aint Tech it aint worth their time, as expressed in NV.
In Fallout, None is black and white. Everyone borders the two in gray.
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thesmallprint



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:48 am

@arbiter1742 wrote:


Spoiler:
 

No, they want to save a hypothetical population by eliminating the one that already exists. And as pointed out, that involves killing 96% of the people already in the Wasteland. That is outright genocide.

As you see through several parts of the game, often mutations are beneficial, whether from the ant mutagens in Greyditch or from various other radiation-related mutations (which are nonsense, btw, I prefer to imagine that there is still a strain of FEV at work, as that makes much more sense. Oh and it was the FEV that created Super-mutants, not radiation).

In several important ways, the people who survived represent evolution,a nd the Enclave represent regression. They may be more 'pure' genetically, but that just means they lack the adaptations to deal with the new environment. They might overcome this through their science, but at the cost of eliminating the only survivors of their past warmongering, for no other crime than existing and not being one of them. I know the 'Nazism' comparison is extremely overdone and tired, but there is a reason the Enclave officer's uniform resembles that of the SS.

As for the Legion, I'm not sure what you think their noble goal is, but if it is achieved by systematic slavery and the reduction of women to property and sex-cattle, then it's not worth it.

I always find it kind of odd how many dark fictions get compared to older works in terms of the 'moral greyscale'. E.g. Game of Thrones gets compared to Tolkien for not being black and white, but grey instead. In fact, It just cuts out the white. There's still a lot of black in there, and the rest is just varying shades of grey. Same with fallout. The Raiders are the extreme expression of absolute immorality and degenerate evil. Also, Tolkien has a lot of grey in it, though you have look outside the main stories to understand the complexities. Anyway, sidetracked.
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saruking



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:11 am

Of course the Brotherhood of steel.

Why?
Because they're the ones still standing.
The West Coast Chapter may be alive and doing some good (depending on the player choice.)
The East Coast Chapter is standing strong and spreading its influence and membership.

The Enclave is fractured and barely standing if not completely destroyed by the time period in fallout 4.
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arbiter1742



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PostSubject: Re: Brotherhood vs Enclave   Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:13 am

@thesmallprint wrote:
No, they want to save a hypothetical population by eliminating the one that already exists. And as pointed out, that involves killing 96% of the people already in the Wasteland. That is outright genocide.

Yes, it is genocide, and it is extreme. But the Enclave believe that that is the only way to save humanity - not by moving forward and creating a new world, but by going back to a time when civilization was at its peak, hence the 'pure' humans. They do genuinely want to save humanity - the only problem is that they believe 'humanity' means 'non-mutants'. It is extreme, and it is incredibly short sighted, but they do believe it is the only way. As I've said, they are earnest, but are going at it in the wrong way.

The comparison to the Legion is inevitable. The Legion wants to go back to a time when a city was able to rise and turn itself into an famous empire, amidst larger powers or disorderly tribes. Caesar believes that the only way for humans to rise again was to tame the environment, and that translated into adopting the practices of the Roman Empire, albeit a corrupted version of it.

As I've said, it's the question of abandoning morals for survival. Is it worth it? Well, that's the big question.
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