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 You are not the main charachter in fo3

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PostSubject: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:28 pm

Hello Guys, today i wanted to share my thoughs of how the player its really not the main character in fallout 3 but James is( at least in the main storyline.)

Since the introduction of the game your objective is to find your dad, why? from that point you just feel secondary as James is the one going on his mission to save the wasteland but you are just like,"UMMMM DADDY".

Now after finding James he is the one that leads everything, in the conversations of important stuff you are just cast aside, and if they talk to you is just to give you a quest or if you know something, basically you're treated as a goon.
Now, after James dies you dont take control of the situation but Doctor Li does and she is the one who takes the survivors to the Brotherhood. After that you're just sent to do some chores. In the assault to the Enclave you dont lead the Brotherhood and give the orders but Lyons does. In the ending you can do the sacrifice but still because James wanted to, you're still doing stuff for him.
In the main storyline of the game you're treated as a hired gun.

Now, you do have more protagonist in the side quests but they feel rather small," why dont you go to destroy the republic of dave or something while we work on the purifier".
But still some side quests suffer from this., for example blowing up the Megaton, yo dont do it because you have your reasons but because of tempenny, who actually has a purpose for it ,but you're just a Mr.Burke for Mr.Burke.

Thank you for reading this, post your thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:55 pm

That or maybe it's just good ol' Bethesda, you know, they didn't nailed totally the RPG in Fallout 3(not in the main storyline at least) because the best RPG in 3 stands in the side quests. I mean, at the end you can't side with the Enclave, take a Devil Power armor and assist them on an assault against the citadel(or maybe infiltrate the citadel through underground tunnels to disable Optimus Prime lol) stuff like that, basically they didn't think of that when they were making the game, stupidly they just ignored what New Vegas did and followed the same mechanic, the same way to develop a sequel, but dumber, at least in 3 your choices matter at some extent.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:21 pm

Here's a way to address Fallout games, in my opinion:

Remove the main character, and then look at what would have happened. In fallout 1, the Master would have won. In Fallout 2, the enclave would have won. In New Vegas, we can probably assume that the Lanius had a fair chance of winning due to the weakness of the NCR in the Mojave. The sole survivor is the prime mover of events in the Commowealth.
But what happens if the lone Wanderer died trying to escape vault 101?
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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:43 pm

Very well thought out. Makes sense, plus a lot of the stuff when you are born Amata throws you the party she planned. Mr. Broch gives you the goat test. You have to excape 101 because of your father. A lot of stuff is out of your control.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:10 pm

@Sirdanest wrote:
Here's a way to address Fallout games, in my opinion:

Remove the main character, and then look at what would have happened.  In fallout 1, the Master would have won.  In Fallout 2, the enclave would have won.  In New Vegas, we can probably assume that the Lanius had a fair chance of winning due to the weakness of the NCR in the Mojave.  The sole survivor is the prime mover of events in the Commowealth.
But what happens if the lone Wanderer died trying to escape vault 101?  

James then would still be trapped in Dr. Braun’s simulator, Tranquility Lane. I don’t think he was being saved anytime soon if it wasn’t for your character intervening.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:12 pm

@Shuyin Kojima yeah thats true, but still ,you're rescuing the one that makes the story move(james) instead of being you.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:17 pm

@fermindal wrote:
@Shuyin Kojima yeah thats true, but still ,you're rescuing the one that makes the story move(james) instead of being you.

You’re not wrong. Throughout the story you basically are just a pawn. A competent pawn mind you, but at the end of the day still a pawn.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:35 pm

This is one of the problems that I have with FO3, but it's not inherently a problem Bethesda just handled it poorly. I stand by the idea that, in RPG's, you should earn your main character status. Morrowind, Oblivion, and New Vegas did this, throughout the course of the MQ your character becomes the MC, but throughout FO3 you're just a an observer.
Bethesda sort of wrote themselves into a corner, some railroading in RPGs is necessary to give the player purpose and in order to structure the MQ. Bethesda heard "Railroad" and built a cross country track.
I'm going to get some shit for this, but even FO4 did it better. You entrench yourself in a larger issue where you are big part of the story just by engaging in your (relatively) much smaller problem. It's basic, and FO4's story isn't winning any awards any time soon, but it did handle the MC status better.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:20 pm

@Screw4ff wrote:
This is one of the problems that I have with FO3, but it's not inherently a problem Bethesda just handled it poorly. I stand by the idea that, in RPG's, you should earn your main character status. Morrowind, Oblivion, and New Vegas did this, throughout the course of the MQ your character becomes the MC, but throughout FO3 you're just a an observer.
Bethesda sort of wrote themselves into a corner, some railroading in RPGs is necessary to give the player purpose and in order to structure the MQ. Bethesda heard "Railroad" and built a cross country track.
I'm going to get some shit for this, but even FO4 did it better. You entrench yourself in a larger issue where you are big part of the story just by engaging in your (relatively) much smaller problem. It's basic, and FO4's story isn't winning any awards any time soon, but it did handle the MC status better.

I have the opposite opinion on Oblivion. I always felt the story was centered around Martin and the fact that he’s dragonborn and the son of the late Emperor Uriel Septim.  I never felt that the story was about me. Sure you become the Hero of Kvatch and then later the CoC, but the story was more aboot Martin. And then at the end of it all the only thing you get after the whole ordeal is this sad, poor imitation of the emperor’s armor. After basically single-handedly delivering the good guys the victory, they’re like Here’s this discount, hand-me-down armor that you can have. K thanks, bye! I’m still bitter about it.

It wasn’t like that in Morrowind however, as you were able to fulfill the Nerevarine prophecy and defeat Dagoth Ur and then later in Skyrim you were dragonborn who was going to defeat Alduin. But thats my two cents on the subject.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:35 pm

I say it again, Bethesda doesn't know how write, yes, they create an amazing world, i mean fallout 3 and 4 worlds are much better than NV, just imagine what the strip would have looked like if it was designed by Bethesda, but on everything they are just lazy, not only in history but game mechanics to. Bethesda :world design, Someone else : story.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:52 am

@fermindal wrote:
I say it again, Bethesda doesn't know how write, yes, they create an amazing world, i mean fallout 3 and 4 worlds are much better than NV, just imagine what the strip would have looked like if it was designed by Bethesda, but on everything they are just lazy, not only in history but game mechanics to. Bethesda :world design, Someone else : story.


Just imagine what the strip would have looked like if Obsidian had the same development time that 3 had, New Vegas was made in 18 months, of course the world is not that "good"!
still, they managed to make a better RPG, a worthy sequel to 2.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:32 am

This was actually a fairly thoughtful post. I am not saying your assessment is incorrect, rather, is it a good thing that you are NOT the main character?

You are quite young when you leave the vault and this needs to be considered. I am 30 now and definitely remember being 20. Was I mature at 20? no. Was I able to make decisions which decided the fate of thousands? I have no idea but am concerned that I was not.

I often play with TTW installed. Perhaps the growing up and learning that my character had in DC prepared them for the tougher decisions in the Mojave.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:09 am

@Shuyin Kojima wrote:
@Sirdanest wrote:
Here's a way to address Fallout games, in my opinion:

Remove the main character, and then look at what would have happened.  In fallout 1, the Master would have won.  In Fallout 2, the enclave would have won.  In New Vegas, we can probably assume that the Lanius had a fair chance of winning due to the weakness of the NCR in the Mojave.  The sole survivor is the prime mover of events in the Commowealth.
But what happens if the lone Wanderer died trying to escape vault 101?  

James then would still be trapped in Dr. Braun’s simulator, Tranquility Lane. I don’t think he was being saved anytime soon if it wasn’t for your character intervening.

It's been a long time since I played Fallout 3 through to the end. Didn't they end up being able to go forward without James?
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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:54 am

I think you are right, you just go after him all the time while he does the great things. It's very strange that they did not notice or decided to do it that way. Bethesda's games would be better without main quest, at least after Morrowind, because all of them suck so badly closed eyes smile

But, taking that out, I still enjoy the world fo Fallout 3.
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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:42 am

You couldn't be more wrong. That's not how Fallout 3's narrative works.

Fallout 3 follows a path based narrative structure more traditionally known as the Hero's journey, which places the character on a set path such as completing a great work, in this case, their father's. While the Lone wanderer did not create project purity, they are completing their father's legacy, which fulfils the requirements of the Hero in this structures.

What makes the Lone Wanderer the hero is the fact that they are the Pivot up on which the narrative moves. James cements the emotional and moral connections to the story and the setting (you are pursuing your father/finishing your parents's work), but all of this is placed very much upon the shoulders of the character.

Take Star Wars for example. The prequel trilogy and original trilogy both focus around Anakin/Darth Vader. However that is the over arching narrative. The personal journey we experience is that of Obi Wan in the prequels, and Luke in the original. So it's arguable that while the over arching narrative is James', the story is very much about the Lone Wanderer and their journey, to which James, much like Vader is pivotal to the narratives progression, but we do not empathise with them in the same way as the protagonist, we see them in a third person perspective. James acts as a deuteragonist, someone who acts as a foil, or provides purpose to the protagonist, though that is by intention. They give the protagonist purpose within the story. Your initial post seems to be a little confused about how protagonist's function. The game has one single protagonist, you, the LW. Everyone else exists around them and their story.

I'm a big fan of narrative, and story writing, it's my main subject for my study and my upcoming dissertation. I remember back during Fallout: Lonestar's development they posted these narrative breakdowns of Bethesda's Fallout games. Here's the one for Fallout 3.



Fallout 3's story has a very clear progression from it's point A, to B, to C. Point A) Leave Vault, find Dad. Point B) Find Geck, restore Dad's dream, project purity. C) Take back project purity and stop the Enclave. This 3 arc narrative isn't complex or flashy, and it's not free to much non-linear interaction, but all of it revolves around the player DOING something. And those somethings, your actions, are pivotal to the final act. Everything else, the Brotherhood V Enclave, the Good Fight, Super Mutants, Settlers... these things happen around the player, they're table dressing for the setting. That's where the player has the choice to break from the linear and be a good guy or bad guy. But the main narrative follows a singular thread from the start to finish, and the player takes the role of the hero setting out to see it through to the end. James does not do that. He sets the player on that path, but he does not see it through, which means that he cannot be the protagonist of the game.

Anyway, just clearing it up. Bethesda take a lot of slack for their writing, and it's mainly because they don't do overly complex, and tend to stick to more simplistic narratives, like Fallout 3. But Fallout 3 is, if nothing else, the Hero's Journey of the Lone Wanderer. It's easy to just dump all over Bethesda, but if you take Fallout 3 as a linear game, it's actually well written and a fun journey. The only issue of course is that it's meant to be an RPG with multiple endings. Which it is not. Now some side quests like blowing up Megaton, or Tenpenny towers are open to choice, but they aren't the main narrative.

That said, the issues you've highlighted are purely the result of misinterpretation, as opposed to bad writing. It's like saying Benny is the main character of New Vegas, or Kellog is the main character of Fallout 4. You can argue that Benny probably thought he was the main character, but he isn't. The courier moves the narrative, and while I believe New Vegas' story is far superior to Fallout 3's, that doesn't mean the narrative doesn't work.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:35 pm

@"IRORIEH" Now that I read your above. You have given me something to think about a bit. Especially as I have an upcoming TTW character I am thinking about(I love thinking up new modlists!)

Would you mind putting a your thoughts on fnv down? I know you are likely quite busy. I should be studying my CFA material as well and so understand if you dont have the time or inclination for that. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:14 pm

@CptnBrryCrnch wrote:
@IRORIEH Now that I read your above. You have given me something to think about a bit. Especially as I have an upcoming TTW character I am thinking about(I love thinking up new modlists!)

Would you mind putting a your thoughts on fnv down? I know you are likely quite busy. I should be studying my CFA material as well and so understand if you dont have the time or inclination for that. Smile

I've done a write up on Fallout NV once before, can't remember on what thread though, but here's the plot breakdown Lonestar uploaded a while back.



A quick little side note on Benny though. He was been groomed by House for the position the Courier ends up taking should they side with House, and, should the player go through with the Wild Card option and Independent NV ending, they're completing the plans Benny had laid in motion, so Benny is actually a far more important character than the failed robber he appears. It's something I never really considered when playing the game the first time through, but the Player pretty much winds up taking Benny's place, the man who tried to kill him. Benny tried to take your life , but in the end you took his, figuratively and literally in some cases. It's pretty ironic, and fantastic storytelling on Obsidian's part.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:01 pm

@IRORIEH, yeah youre right but the thing is, its badly written as you always feel like a tool trough the game, yes you are the hero but it feels like some kind of puppet, like they take advantage of you because of your "skills".
thanks for the thoughts never looked at it that way but still the main story is way to linear.

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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:38 am

@IRORIEH @fermindal That's exactly was I was going to say!

I understand that in FO3, like 99% of the videogames, they tried to make the heroe's journey: you are forced to leave your home and go into an adventure/quest where you meet people and adquire equipment that help you defeat evil/complete your adventure/quest.

But the thing is, that it feels more like being Chewbacca than being Luke, you are not the hero, that's the others in your adventure. I've always thought about Dragon's Age: Origins as the best Hero's Journey I have had experience, there YOU are the hero, you are the one making the whole world change, people depend on you, you take the decissions that change the world, it's your journey, not other's journey (although the same could be said about F01, FO2 and NV and many other games, it's just that I believe that DAO is as amazing as it can be).

It's been years since I played Fallout 3, so I don't have recent memories, but everyone here seems to feel the same about it... But if you say it's well written, I think I'm going to give it another try. I don't care if it's linear as long as it's well written, the thing is that as I remember it, it's not.
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PostSubject: Re: You are not the main charachter in fo3   Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:08 pm

something to consider https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLJ1gyIzg78 at the 8:20 mark, goes over why FO3 feels disconnected to previous iterations
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