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 Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?

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PostSubject: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:19 pm

The title explains what this topic is about. While yes we all know the Enclave on both coasts was destroyed by the BOS but realistically would it really be possible? Before drawing a conclusion take into account that:

1. The Enclave had in their possession an orbital strike satellite code-named Bradley-Hercules. During the end of Broken Steel, you have the option to destroy the Citadel. Why wouldn't the Enclave use the satellite to destroy the Citadel after the loss of Raven Rock? Instead, they decide to call down an orbital strike on their own base where yes Liberty Prime is destroyed but their men and their installation at risk. I find this level of incompetence unrealistic for a faction that uses the same tactics used 200 years ago by the U.S. Military who proved those tactics to be effective.

2. How does a vault dweller with little experience in terms of combat defeat a team of Sigma operators? You're telling me one vault dweller could destroy an entire team of the most highly trained personnel the Enclave has. Not to mention with the best equipment possibly available. Yes, of course, you could argue that the Lone Wanderer has had time to train but still, Sigma operators have been trained with proven and perfected methods of fighting their whole life topped with combat experience. The Vault dweller, on the other hand, has only had combat experience and at most a year (and that's stretching it) to train him/herself.

3. The technological advantage of the BOS is laughable compared to the Enclave. Yes, they have Liberty Prime but it is annihilated in seconds by an orbital strike. Their T-45 Power Armour is outdated and realistically should prove no significant challenge for the Enclave. The only thing they got going for them is inexperienced recruits and their access to advanced weaponry similar to the Enclave.

Those are just some points to take into account before you make a decision. Respond if you want to, I just wanted to write something.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:08 pm

1: With the Citadel being so close to Project Purity they wouldn't want to risk it. Remember that Project Purity was their chance to cleanse the wasteland of every super mutant, wastelander and impure being, and they wouldn't risk it to just take out some chapter of the BoS. Judging by Eden's radio broadcasts, he doesn't take the BoS very seriously at all.

Also, given that the Enclave are pretty much the former US government, why would they destroy the Pentagon and not just charge their soldiers in to take out the BoS instead leaving the Pentagon left standing? Not to mention the tech they'd find that would help them expand their presence across the wasteland.

2: Well, to be honest, all protagonists are completely overpowered. The Sole Survivor destroyed the Prydwen and the veribirds that were sent to the Castle with some farmers wielding laser muskets and hundred year old artillery meanwhile also taking out entire squads of BoS troops in T-60 Power Armour (one of the best sets in the game!). The Courier survived two shots to the head at close quarters and woke up with no consequences. The Lone Wanderer survived lethal doses of radiation and woke up unscathed (even before Sarah Lyons', who wasn't even in the chamber!)

Point being is that the protagonist is pretty overpowered and has extreme layers of plot armour to keep the story going.

3. This kind of also falls under the second question. The BoS have plot armour to keep the story going, and really, it's not too unrealistic for the Enclave to be a dominant force due to technology and their military, but have weak impotent leaders. Eden and Autumn are both leaders of the Enclave, which would make them weak because there's a split in leadership. I'm guessing that there would be some that are ferociously loyal to the President and others that would regard him as a propaganda tool just covering up for the true leader, Autumn. When the Lone Wanderer is captured by the Enclave and taken to Raven Rock, when Eden tells the troops to let the Lone Wanderer pass they do, but they only become hostile once Autumn gives the go-ahead, really showing that they value Autumn's orders more than Eden's order.

With that being said, a house divided against itself cannot stand.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:47 pm

@Corvo The Pentagon is a fair distance away from Project Purity and once the Enclave is set up at Project Purity the possibility of damage only furthermore decreases due to the photonic resonance barriers (Blue Force Fields). Also, it is obvious that the Enclave is willing to take the risk since they called an orbital strike down on one of their own bases.

You answered yourself in terms of why the Enclave did not attack the Citadel. It would end the story right there. As such this is a point as to why BOS victory is unrealistic as I'm sure the Enclave would have had intelligence on Liberty Prime and would have assaulted the facility to regain control of such a powerful weapon.

Moving on to the protag. Yes, I know that protags are op but this topic was focused on realism and if a Brotherhood victory would actually be possible. Meaning realism should be taken into account before formulating a conclusion.

Now to Eden. Eden himself is not the real leader but a puppet leader. The normal Enclave members did not know that their leader was a ZAX AI and Autumn held the codes for Edens self-destruct. As you said the Enclave soldiers followed Autumns orders over Edens. Even so every Enclave soldier you come across tries to kill you. So based on how well Autumn has himself setup it is hard to say that Autumn is incompetent or that leadership is divided to a large problematic extent. Autumn was just waiting for is chance and he took it.

Not to mention I doubt two people were all that commanded the Armed Forces. I'm sure there were others especially since Autumn is either killed or just leaves at the end of the main story never to be seen again also showing us that Enclave High Command consists of more then two people. Also realistically I doubt every person in the Enclave is incapable of using the tactics they were taught by the Enclave clearly showing poor writing on Bethesda's part.

To finish off you say "a house divided against itself cannot stand." While yes this is true the house is not divided. Or at least not equally. The ruling majority wins and those who were loyal to Eden died at Raven Rock.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:27 pm

@MrEggs0925 They called down an orbital strike on a base that was just about to be taken by the Brotherhood. It is possible that they saw the power Liberty Prime had after their defeat at the purifier and wanted to destroy Liberty Prime so the BoS could not use it to take over Adams Air Force Base.

It's unrealistic, but plausible. There have been many wars in the Fallout universe that were won with weaker technology. The NCR beat the Western Brotherhood so greatly the last of them had to isolate themselves in a bunker. The NCR won by numbers, and judging by how the BoS in Fallout 3 openly accept wastelanders to join, and the Enclave doesn't, it's entirely possible that the BoS is drastically larger than the Enclave, especially after their defeat in Fallout 2.

I'd say the opposite, it's quite hard to say Autumn isn't incompetent. I mean, he almost gets himself killed and lets James irradiate the chamber killing both of his men and nearly himself had it not be for the Rad-X he used. Had Autumn died, Eden wouldn't be able to be a competent leader either, and of course, Raven Rock would be destroyed leaving the same thing to happen, and this also is another point on if Fallout 3 was realistic, it's plausible the BoS would win, because with Autumn out of the picture, it's even more likely the BoS would win, be it that the "true" leader of the Enclave is dead. If Autumn was competent, he wouldn't rely on Rad-X to save him, and he wouldn't let the only person who who knew the purifier code escape, especially not to go have a chat with Eden instead of y'know, actually interrogate the LW?

While true that those that were loyal to Eden died at Raven Rock, that would be a huge fraction of the Enclave's forces in Fallout 3, especially given they have only three bases in the whole Capital Wasteland and Raven Rock was their main base of operations. Speaking of Raven Rock, the Lone Wanderer can escape Raven Rock without really coming into combat with anybody. Eden's Assaultrons kill most of the Enclave troops and even if the Lone Wanderer doesn't convince Eden to self-destruct, Liberty Prime and the BoS wipe out Raven Rock anyways after Project Purity is activated. This just goes to show that the LW a lot of the time can avoid combat with the Enclave and most of the time the Enclave is killed off by the BoS forces, not independently the wanderer himself.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:04 am

@Corvo Wrong. An orbital strike was called down on the facility when they were funneled into the courtyard. The only part of the facility that had been breached was the tunnel. Firing the orbital strike on top of the base was done to eliminate Liberty Prime. Enclave High Command put the personal and the base at risk to eliminate Liberty Prime showing collateral damage is acceptable and the Enclave is OK with taking risks and doing repairs.

You also need to take into account that the Enclave were making new variants of Eyebots and producing new Hellfire power armor. Minor damage would be fine as I'm sure they would be competent enough to repair the damage seeing as they also turned a Shuttle carrier into a mobile base.

In terms of quantity over quality yes that is true but the Brotherhood did not have endless troops or at least the same amount of troops we saw in Fallout 4. The troops we saw in Fallout 3 were being trained and even Paladin Gunny makes a comment on how they had to be rushed through training to fight the Enclave showing us that their numbers are not as large as you make think and that they are somewhat comparable to the Enclave leaving for a mostly equal fight numbers wise.

Now on to Autumn. How can you be incompetent when you prepare for the person in charge of the facility to possibly kill himself by entering a code that would in turn activate a massive radiation purge. Knowing to prepare for something of that nature is not a sign of incompetence. It is also not a sign of incompetence to rely on other things to help and aid you. If anything Autumn was smart knowing something like that could happen and in turn prepared for that.

Also. The ZAX AI Eden lets the lone Wanderer escape. Not Colonel Autumn. It is perfectly normal for Colonel Autumn to believe that the restraints would not suddenly turn off. When he found out that the ZAX had turned off the restraints he imminently took precautions to eliminate the lone wanderer.

Finally to finish off. The Enclave would obviously have a line of succession put into place. The Chain of command follows the highest rank and I doubt there was only one Colonel in the Enclave. Sure you may see Colonel Autumn as incompetent but after he is either killed or walks away you never hear of him again and would be replaced. Realistically I find it impossible that a faction that lore wise is held so highly for their combat skills and tech would allow their own leadership to be largely ineffective and cost themselves the war. Its like a clone of the "evil" Galactic Empire who gets decimated by rebels because of things that make no sense. Basically just because Colonel Autumn is gone doesn't mean the entire Enclave is doomed.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:34 am

The Enclave seem to want the Pentagon captured. This is kind of inferred through President Eden's radio addresses, where he is angered by the Brotherhood's presence there. It makes sense. It was after all the hub of the pre-war US. Liberty Prime for instance was located here, there are likely secrets there that only the Enclave, as inheritor to the US government would know about, much like the missile silos in Hopeville. As we see after blowing up the Citadel in Fallout 3, there are a number of levels lower down that we don't have access to. Who knows what's down there?

I think the real incompetence you can blame Autumn for in the instance your talking about was sealing himself in their with James. It was an unnecessary step, and one that meant if James were to gas him, which to be fair he wouldn't entirely know about, he would be trapped. Though, I don't think Autumn is entirely bumbling. He is after all, entirely aware of Eden's limitations, and has his own failsafe set up. What I want to know, is why is Autumn the sole higher up we know about. He's a colonel, surely there must be other Enclave forces out there in a position of power? Like a general or something. I just think he was a terrible endgame boss and generic bad-guy military officer. Though that's neither here nor there.

The Enclave's resources and troop numbers are questionable, and not something addressed very well by the game at all. You would think, as would be logical, that blowing up their main base would wipe out the majority of their forces. However they still have a ton of forces by Broken Steel. It is possible they were stationed at Adam AFB, though it wouldn't make sense for that many troops to be stationed that far away at a time when the main target (Project Purity) was located closer to their main base of Raven Rock. As well as this, the amount of Vertibirds that would be destroyed in Raven Rocks destruction, as well as, more than likely the majority of their fuel depots, would mean their air power should have been reduced significantly, costing them one of their largest  edges over the Brotherhood. Sure, some Vertibirds and troops would have escaped, as we see, though realistically in situation like that, the amount of Vertibirds/troops to escape would significantly less than those who perished, meaning the amount of Enclave soldiers encountered in Broken Steel itself is pretty dubious, and probably inflated for the sake of gameplay. So I would say BOS also have a numbers edge over the Enclave, which itself should have been a small organisation to begin with. The Enclave in Fallout 3 are the remnants of those from the Oil Rig/Navarro,  which was already not that large. So keep in mind what I said about Raven Rock, because this takes place after the far more catastrophic Oil Rig bombing, in which the majority of the original forces would have been wiped out, and the Battle of Navarro, in which even more Enclave personal were killed, and later hunted into near extinction on the west coast. The group we encounter in Fallout 3 are a small splinter of the Original organisation, who made a cross continental voyage in Vertibirds (which were notoriously bad at functioning for long periods of time in post war conditions), many would have been lost on the way. I find it more than likely, even with years to breed and train a new generation of Enclave soldier, that the Brotherhood would be able to field an army of equal or comparable size to the Enclave. The amount of troops the East coast Enclave have in game via respawns and other features to inflate their strength is pretty bullshit, so I'm gonna guess the real number is far smaller, easily less than 1000, probably more around 300-500, which is being very generous. The amount of Vertibirds, even less. And that's before Raven Rock. In broken steel, probably half, if not more are dead.

The Enclaves mobility is stunted post Project Purity. They are on the Backfoot. I'd reckon destroying, as oppose to capturing Liberty Prime, as I'm sure they would have liked is a desperate move. That orbital platform is not an expendable resource. It's got limited capacity and 0 way to refill. Destroying a main base, like the Citadel won't wipe the BoS out. Its going to do irreperable damage, of course, but the Enclave don't want to waste it, or as I mentioned earlier, destroy the Pentagon. It's a last resort.

As for their ability to manufacture Power Armour, Eyebots, or even Vertibirds, as we learn from Whitley's logs in FNV, the Enclave's resources were stretched thin, with everything been directed to Power Armour research. Even then, there are only a few suits of Hellfire in game, as would make sense. A few suits of Hellfire armour isn't going to miraculously turn the Enclave's war effort around, particularly if, as Whitley's logs indicate, they are strained to create these armours as is.

All in all, I think based on what we play in game, the Brotherhood defeating the Enclave is very possible. The Enclave twice loose their command base, lose two figureheads in a very short space of time, are running low on troops and resources, surprised by the emergence of a Brotherhood superweapon, and constantly outmanoeuvred by the diligent work of the Lone Wanderer, the Brotherhoods top field agent. Without the wanderer, this is definitely a different story, but even then, it's still not impossible.

Also, as to how an inexperienced Vault dweller did any of that, well the same could be said for Fallout 1 with the Vault dweller stepping into a world they know nothing about and defeating a mutant army, or how did a Wasteland tribal defeat the Enclave the first time around with little to no knowledge of the world beyond their village, or how does a package courier recover from a gunshot to the head and decide the fate of Vegas. Because they're a blank slate for you to work with as the player. That's the only reason you should need.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:11 pm

Enclave would lose terribly to the Brotherhood once more only if, the brotherhood has enough manpower to throw at those High Guys with Plasma Rifle.
Enclave's resources were exhausted, low in manpower but they lead in technology.

If the Enclave's Orbital Bombardment is still active and operation and has enough ammo to destroy Project Purity, The Pentagon and many vital structure to the Brotherhood, it would mean a serious blow.

If the both sides were exhausted, there would be 50/50, Enclaves chain of command were destroyed. They were scattered and hunted, so if the Enclave returned once more with enough power.

I think no Enclave would be Victor against Brotherhood if they have the resources to overthrow the Brotherhood's Manpower.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:12 pm

@IRORIEH While yes it does seem possible that the Enclave could want The Citadel back it raises the question as to why the Enclave made no attempt to take it. No assault force, no snipers, no recon, nothing. Yet they decide take over Project Purity a mere 1 to 2 kilometers away at best. A lot of the problems we see are all mostly due to bad writing on the developers part as realistically it seems far fetched that every tactician in the Enclave would overlook something so crucial. A super computer like the ZAX AI Eden would never overlook a faction with access to such advanced technology and so close to their objectives also. It is obvious that the Enclave posses the troops needed as you said even after their main base was destroyed they still had the mobile command center and the satellite array station manned with a number of troops.

While yes I do not believe that Autumn is the smartest person in the world I do not believe he is completely incompetent also. I can agree with you on the sealing of the chamber. There was a scientist outside the door not 20 armed men. But then again we see even the power armored troops inside die instantly despite the power armor's rad resistance. Regrading Autumns rank. This has also confused me. My best guess is Eden did not completely trust Autumn and tried to maybe limit his power? Maybe Eden didn't give anyone else the rank because he did not want Autumn to betray him? I don't really know. Its just another plot hole I guess.

Regarding Adams AFB. I would think they had so many people there since their new command base was there. Its a "mobile" base but its kind of a stupid idea that Bethesda came up with. I'm guessing that was the best location they could find that was reinforced and had space for their vertibirds. Like we see in Fallout 4 the Brotherhood patrols with a number of vertibirds through out the game and even had enough fuel to power the Prydwen. I believe the fuel used on the Prydwen had a mix of jet fuel and other stuff which leads me to believe that the mobile base either had a crap ton of fuel or Adams AFB somehow had fuel reserves that survived. The number of vertibirds we also see in Fallout 4 leads me to believe that they most likely had some in storage at Adams AFB. Also I believe recalling Danse saying that they had attack vertibirds back in the Capital which hints that they did have more vertibirds then we actually saw.

While taking the trip across the former U.S. in their vertibirds I do believe that they visited refueling sites along the way. Im guessing either small outposts or pre-war facilities. It is obvious that some would be lost but I do not believe that they lost a very sizable amount considering the amount of forces we see in Fallout 3. Also remember the Enclave does not recruit so again a sizable percentage must have made it. The Enclave that left for the East Coast left obviously before the fall of Navarro under orders from Eden who contacted them sending coordinates to Raven Rock. Forces must have been split into two somewhat equal parts with one staying and the other going to the Raven Rock.

maybe a preemptive strike with the orbital cannon wouldn't have been reasonable but after loosing Raven Rock and getting overrun by the BOS I believe that the Enclave would have fired upon the Pentagon. Also I'm pretty sure you don't have to automatically fire all missiles but you could fire a amount to your pleasing. They could have fired one dead center in the courtyard scaring the BOS. All of the major commanders and such for the BOS are located there. Without it their only outposts would be downtown. Not to mention all their weapons, armor, and materials are located there and it would be destroyed. Even if they were to completely destroy the Citadel they would buy themselves time and scatter the BOS forces with no real safe place to meet up at and no leadership to guide them. After the events of Fallout 3 Lyons and his daughter die leading to incompetent leader after incompetent leader showing how scattered the BOS would have become with less men to choose from and no real place to lead them all from. As you said its a last resort but they were getting wiped out. Once the relay station is wiped out and Liberty Prime is destroyed it would have been he perfect time to strike back. Think about it Adams AFB is soon to be compromised and it is their last base to hold. Its either they fight back or face total annihilation. The last thing regarding resources. While yes they were stretched thin, a victory and in turn total control over the Capital Wasteland would allow them to scavenge and build up their material storage once again. If anything this only give the Enclave another reason to use their orbital cannon against the BOS. Resources are dwindling, their outposts have been wiped out, and the location of Adams AFB is soon to be compromised. They were on their last legs and wasting their last chance.

The main protagonists is what I have been saying. Realistically he or she would have been wiped out like nothing but of course the story needs to progress and the good guys need to win. But as I stated if it were a real situation the BOS would have little to no chance based on what the BOS faces. Even you said the it would have been a different story for the BOS without the Lone wanderer.

I still stick with an Enclave victory. Realistically the Enclave would have never been so blind and incompetent. As I have said before I doubt every soldier and commander in the Enclave was so stupid as to save the plays for later especially after all their other bases had been destroyed and Adams AFB was to be next. Considering the Enclave throughout the whole game makes no attempt at attacking the Citadel in any way just shows the lack of detail when it came to the story at least when dealing with the Enclave. Its a two sided good versus bad scenario where the bad guys are always stupid and incapable of doing the things they have spent their whole life training to do.

Anyways, you made some great points and definitely helped me change my outlook on some of the things I had originally said. If you want to continue then feel free to do so.

@GhostFire Well yes I believe the Enclave would lose it they tried to fight the BOS after their defeat on the East Coast considering they had lost a large percentage of their tech to the BOS and their main advantage the Orbital Cannon had been depleted from the first war.

Like I said earlier the Enclave should have used their Orbital Cannon to destroy The Citadel after they had lost Raven Rock and especially after they had lost the Satellite Relay Station.
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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:25 pm

@MrEggs0925 wrote:
Realistically the Enclave would have never been so blind and incompetent.

Funny you should say this considering in both Fallout 2 and 3, the Enclave lost because in essence, they were actually quite blind to the challenges that the wasteland would throw at them. They lost at the oil rig because they underestimated that "wasteland savages" could ever pose a real threat to them, and in 3 by underestimating Lyon's Brotherhood, and Liberty Prime, which it seems likely they would be aware of though probably never imagined they could activate him.

As to why no attempt was made to take the citadel, do we have a solid number on how long the Enclave had been active in the Capital Wasteland? Maybe they were still consolidating power in the region and did not wish to strike so soon. It may have been a case of not wishing to overextend themselves, or committing to a costly assault (the Citadel was remarkably well fortified for a post war settlement), as opposed to simply forcing the Brotherhood into a confrontation over the purifier, which I'm sure they believed they would win handily, and then crushing the remaining forces in the Citadel. It makes more sense than charging head on against their main fortified position. The Citadel has withstood numerous Super Mutant assaults, including attacks from Behemoths. A direct assault on the Citadel would be a tactical blunder, even with Vertibirds, which aren't too sturdy, flying over the walls. The Brotherhood would pluck them out the sky. Attacking from the ground would be just as bad. They could take the Citadel eventually, maybe, but only after a needlessly high loss, one which a group like the Enclave who relies on it's dwindling manpower and Virtibird armada, could not risk.

Fallout 4 definitely paints there as being more production power behind the Brotherhood, likely captured from the Enclave. Danse implies the Brotherhood can actually produce Vertibirds, which, aside from being a little lore breaking, could be possible, but again, we still have FNV's implication that by the end of the war with the BoS, Enclave resources were stretched incredibly thin. The Brotherhood has also had years to plan and produce new crafts, to produce new fuel, much like they have you the player do in game. It's likely the Enclave had supplies, but they also seemed to lack staff. The guy maintaining the mobile base was a wastelander named Stiggs who the Enclave took in from the Wasteland to help staff their base, which is telling, particularly when an organisation renowned for being extremely genocidal and xenophobic is forced to recruit from outside it's ranks. They simply didn't have the numbers, or resources, or both.

As for the orbital cannon, again, it's not a guarantee one missile will wipe out a base. It's also not certain all the Brotherhood's leaders were there. The only higher ups we meet are the Elder, head Scribes, Star Paladin and Sentinel. There have to be other brotherhood higher ups elsewhere, much like with Autumn being a colonel. That's not a complete chain of command, not even close. Wiping out the Citadel doesn't ensure wiping out the Brotherhood, to add to which, it does nothing to prevent a Brotherhood counterattack, and it doesn't deal with the true person who would deal the greatest blow to the Enclave, the Lone Wanderer.

It's always going to be a case of what's best for the story, though personally the Enclave has always been doomed. The story of the Enclave and downfall of the Enclave is integral to Fallout. Man's reliance and trust in technology, without regard for it's capabilities and limitations. The Enclave is the old world. The old world is dead. They're clinging to something that perished 200 years ago, and trying to bring it back to life. Just like the nukes destroyed the old world because they believed the destructive nature of nuclear weapons in of itself was a deterrent that would prevent nuclear destruction from ever occurring, the Enclave's dismissal of the new world and trust that their technology will always keep them ahead of any other wasteland savage is what ultimately dooms them. It breeds arrogance and overconfidence that is central to the narrative surrounding the organisation. The Enclave could never win, they've always been doomed. While I don't like them too much in 3, the narrative thread of the Enclave is actually one the most compelling bits of storytelling in the series. I feel Fallout 3 missed the mark here, though the core elements of the Enclave's story still remain the same.

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:53 pm

If the Enclave has the Space Tech to use, they could or even Win the War against the Brotherhood, ever since the Earth has it's resources depleted or limited.
If the Enclave has a base like on Mars, or even the closest moon or planet in Earth, they could use more resources than the brotherhood, it would take them Years, or even Decades to master the Space Technology.
We all know the Orbital Bombardment used by the Enclave and we know the Fallout Frontier has Space tech, so if the next Fallout would be the fight of Brotherhood and Enclave, it would be the date of like 2500's.
The Enclave has a lot of enemies if they returned to Earth, and if the Brotherhood East and West coast were to made an alliance an NCR, that's the only way that they could defeat Enclave to the Brotherhood, unless Brotherhood were selfish enough to share their tech to NCR, Enclave would certainly win.
We all know Enclave was defeated by getting Overpowered by Liberty prime, and was overwhelmed by the NCR in the Navarro. Plus their oilrig was blewed up.
And if the Brotherhood-NCR alliance defeated the Enclave by once more gaining power in the U.S, there's a chance they'll chase the Enclave command once more.

Therefore i conclude that Enclave would be victorious by their tech, and would lose by getting overwhelmed.
This is like the Great Patriotic War in World War 2, where the Germans led in tech, but Russians overwhelmed them by 10 to 1.
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MrEggs0925

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PostSubject: Re: Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?   Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:32 pm

@IRORIEH While the quote is very general you have taken it out of context. I was talking about the Eastern Enclave detachment which was originally as you probably know part of the Western Enclave. Due to this the East Coat Enclave would obviously know to take wasteland "savages" more seriously. Especially after learning about the BOS and the threat they could posses.

You bring up the possibility that they could have set up there recently. While possibly true it makes no sense for the Enclave to just take over the purifier and do nothing to the Citadel a few kilometers away. I find it hard to believe that the Enclave would just rely on a force field wall to keep the base safe. Especially when it didn't even cover the whole perimeter. Not to mention the original scientists had escaped using a set of tunnels. Would the Enclave really be so blind as to leave them alone. The Enclave had insufficient fortifications at the purifier and still chose to leave one of the largest para military forces in the capital alone without doing anything. But while yes the makeshift fortifications of the Citadel may have seemed impressive you forget that the Enclave had access to vertibirds and could have dropped their troops in a key locations. You also must remember these are makeshift walls made from scrap that were talking about not fortified steel, cement and rebar. Explosives could be used to make new entrances and the crane could be destroyed effectively sealing the BOS inside. Not to mention based on the Enclaves strategy it seem like the Enclave never wanted to draw the BOS all the way out to the Purifier considering they were using "unreachable" barriers that BOS tech would have trouble destroying. Not to mention that to Enclave knowledge Liberty Prime was nonoperational. If they had really wanted to draw out the Enclave the most realistic thing would have been to blow the bridge in between the supports effectively trapping and/or killing the BOS on the bridge. While also cutting off the BOS's best way across. Both simple strategies that the Enclave realistically would have considered and probably to an extent used. they would have relied on a half complete barrier wall surrounding the Purifier.

Enclave resources on the West Coast may have been dwindling but we are talking about about the East Coast Enclave. Do not forget this is a new location with the Raven Rock bunker which probably had materials in storage combined with their own. While yes its probably not as much as they had before it is most likely a sizable amount. Also remember the East Coast BOS is smaller too whiles BOS recruits were inexperienced and being pushed into service during the war. Furthermore the BOS may have been able to gain production power but vertibirds do not just change from a cargo to an attack type. The vertibirds we saw in FO3 were obviously attack choppers considering their different design to the original vertibirds seen on the West Coast and in Fallout 4. The suggests  that the Enclave had more vertibirds then we actually saw.

Regarding personal. While yes they may have been lacking in members. Eden was the one who wanted to go through with the genocide. As Autumn when leaving the base left the FEV behind as well. If the Enclave had been taking in wastelanders it suggest that yes they were lacking in personal but also somewhat accepting to wastelanders like Autumn was. Not to mention we do not exactly how long Stiggs was there.

When talking about the orbital cannon I never said one missile would completely wipe out the entire base. I said it would scare them. But if the shot were dead center in the courtyard it would destroy Liberty Primes storage facility and destroy their main lab. Though it is partially my fault for not making a clear transition from one missile to complete destruction of the base. But considering that wiping out the BOS laboratory would stop them or at least delay them from decoding the data on the mobile bases position effectively hiding them. The BOS leadership on the East coast is smaller considering they are also smaller. Not to mention when travelling from the West Coast a number of the primitive BOS airships crashed. Not to mention that the Outcasts had left the brotherhood lowering their numbers. Again from a realistic standpoint which is mentioned the Lone Wanderer would be nothing more then another BOS soldier where a single shot could end the LW.

While yes the Enclave would lose because the good guys always need to win. The East Coast Enclave would have lost their overconfidence as soon as Raven Rock and the Purifier had fallen. It is completely unrealistic for the Enclave to leave the headquarters of their enemy completely unchecked and completely operational. After the fall of the Satellite Relay Station where the coordinates of their base could be found they should have eliminated the facility and personal who would have decrypted the data. Instead they do nothing. The deterrent of nuclear weapons did work until it was unbalanced. China knew they were going to loose the war they started and decided to launch their missiles.

But really its a shame. We know hardly anything about the East Coast Enclave and never really see any wins for the Enclave. Their best moment where they destroyed Liberty Prime was still a complete failure where the data was recovered. Its a shame but realistically a faction that was held so high for their combat effectiveness and power was completely wiped out pretty much by one man.
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Do you think the Enclave could lose to the BOS?

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