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 How powerful do you think the legion actually are?

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Visible Earth

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:16 am

Anyone else notice the similarity between Islamic State and the Legion?

A military dictatorship, built on religious fanaticism and guerrilla warfare with a penchant for Luddism and Fascist ideology, easily conquering relatively undefended territories before eventually being halted by a less breakable opponent.

I dunno, I just found the similarities interesting. There aren't many times we get to see what is essentially a barbarian horde with machine guns.

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:28 am

Honestly at the point in time they are very powerful for the fact that they have numbers at their disposal. The only big contender they bump into was the NCR because NCR has numbers as well along with tactics to fight them. The legion however, i don't think are very powerful if the numbers are the same. If Caesar waited for however long to watch the NCR drain themselves then yes, he can easily defeat an army that isn't building up their military. Caesar had only one thing he was doing and that was building his army up to destroy the NCR in any possible way. If NCR didn't have to babysit/take care of the mojave, then Caesar would have been beaten because the rangers and the NCR were tactiful and had numbers as well.

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:21 pm

@Visible Earth

The legion is not built on religious fanaticism and they are far from fascism, but I see your point and agree that they are very similar on some points. The islamic state is pretty much a modern barbarian army.

The overall goals of the Legion tho, are quite different.

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:43 pm

Yes the Legion is built on religious fanaticism nimlouth, Caesar had them believe there is a god called Mars and Caesar is the son of Mars and his will on Earth which is why they think of him as a god.
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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:51 pm

There's a defined line between religious fanaticism and cultural mythology/beliefs.

The legion doesn't fight or conquer because their religious convictions, they do it because they are either afraid of their leaders or too morally brainwashed to decide for themselves. But their overall goal is not tied to spread any religious beliefs neither. You'll bassicly be saying that Romans and Mongols conquests where built around fanatic religion too.

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:23 pm

Honestly in my opinion the legion are fairly weak in terms of equipment but in brute strength they can easily beat a foe senseless. So in comparison to ncr they can quickly get out gunned so using numbers and raid tactics they become nearly unstoppable.

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:00 pm

@Wishbone452!? yeah but you forget the legion has fear tactics and the trust of traders in their land, both could be implemented against the NCR in a smart fashion to the legions advantage this is a lore discussion not a pure combat discussion, gotta look at them from all angles because just being able to kill someone ain't enough, gotta break the enemy teams spirit to ensure they'll run away, tail between their legs, god that was a rant, probably not a good one i'm a lil tipsy cowboy cowboy

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:15 am

@"nimlouth" You're right about that.
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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:52 am

To be fair, the Romans and Mongols also believed that their leaders were deified in some way. Most subjects of the empires probably wouldn't give stuff like that too much heed, as both empires were usually pretty tolerant towards most religions, but soldiers like Caligula's Germanic Guard took the emperor's god-status seriously, to the point that they began a massacre of everyone in the Imperial Palace in response to Caligula's assassination.

Another good example is Nazi Germany and the fanaticism borne from its fairly secular creeds of expansionist nationalism, totalitarianism and eugenics. I guess I'm trying to say that you don't need to be following a god to become a fanatic.

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:10 am

@"OrcLivesMatter" well that was easy haha

@"Visible Earth" ofc, I was just trying to bring the point that what moves the Legion is more of a cultural aproach (like the huns or the mongols) than a religious one (like the jihads and the crusades i.e).

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:00 am

The legions harsh morality it imposes on the wasteland, in combination with its reverence for Caesar and the fanaticism the concept of the legion make the legion a pretty big and bad foe. Unlike the NCR, the hold on to territory very well. The NCR is often cited as being overstretched, under supplied, with low moral of its conscripts. The legion has massive numbers, and a cult like mentality. They also draw upon rugged tribals from Arizona and Utah. These tribals are adept at survival and are strong from a harsh world of pain and loss. This large pool of new soldiers makes the legion dangerous to the NCR. But the legion reserves rifles and firearms to its more experience soldier. The NCR relies heavily on firearms. So based on that, the NCR can still outgun the legion, within reason of course.

@Visible Earth you know that is an interesting observation. You can even compare the iconoclasm and removing of past identity (the destruction of cultural artifacts of Mesopotamia and Assyria) to the Islamic State as well

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:54 am

@stoobygacks Yeah it's a pretty common thing with civilisations that consider themselves the be-all end-all of culture to destroy the prior culture's history. Like the Legion and IS, the Soviets, French Revolutionaries, Taliban and Nazis all practised near-total destruction of previous historical artefacts as a means of saying that history was starting anew from here on out, that nothing existed prior to their new world. It's a propaganda thing I guess, a means of brainwashing future generations that will know nothing else.

@nimlouth Yeah I can agree with that. Just pointing out that there is a fanaticism which exists within the Legion even if it is predominantly secular.

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:28 pm

anyone wonder the what ifs, from the legion possibly winning hoover dam, not short-term, i mean long-term effects on the wasteland as a whole

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:11 pm

The legion would've had genocide happen to them in real life. They have a bad reputation and don't have the budget to fight against the NCR nor the skills in an actual fight. They would be more of a threat if they mainly had advanced Armour like Power Armour to justify them charging with swords,knifes,etc against people with automatic high caliber guns and explosives, but they don't. It would be effective if they strapped bombs against themselves, but they don't. Snipers on their side seem to be rare, so a whole bunch of trained NCR snipers alone should've been able to take out large amounts from good distance with little to none threat. You can't just charge through bullets wearing armor with your bare skin exposed and not be murdered as an unit and whole. The game seem to just wanted to make tribals/melee group seem more relevant then they would've been in order to give someone who wanted to do a tribal/melee playthrough someone to relate to, even though that same group is full of slavers,rapists,serial killers, so overall support would low, especially since alot of people look at tribals as being "ignorant" "Stupid" "Crazy" and "Stinky".

They would only be a trend that kept popping up by rebellious people that's against the NCR's rule, but the noise would turn into little to non once the people who keep trying to spread the movement, kept getting shot down. NCR haters may support the remnants of the Legion, but alot of there little left over supporters would abandoned them quickly if there was new group that proved more of a problem in the NCR side.
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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:54 pm

i must admit lol i was not expecting this much feedback and people commenting in this post, it's nice to see all sides and perspectives of the legion from other people, anyone else wish there were more legion quests, just so a legion playthrough would be just a bit more detailed

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:07 pm

@"Kaiser Atlas" It would be great... I imagine it from a DM(Dungeon Master) perspective.

The courier could choose to take over Caesar's Legion and become emperor/ruler (Khan?) or may be something more close to Caesar, influencing his actions. Something like the independent vegas questline but having the Legion's army as backup, continuing their vision of conquer through out the mojave. Convincing groups like the BoS to join the ranks of the horde. That'll be cool as F closed eyes smile

As for your question fo long-term Legion plans on the hoover dam... well... I guess that whoever owns the dam owns New Vegas and thus, owns the mojave.

I imagine Caesar naming New Vegas the Legion's capital, making it the base of a true empire which will overcome every enemy and expand to NCR territory, like romans did with greece.


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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:09 pm

@nimlouth that would make a damn good mod, well we can only wish lol

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:04 pm

Very, speaking from post apocalyptic standards.

They are rigorously trained and structured, but it goes far beyond their basic training. Every person in the legion exists to serve the legion, and those found to be lacking in such devotion are killed. Caesar as the supposed son of mars is both the head of state and god, making him a penultimate and unquestionable dictator. The legion ensures that continued breeding builds up their forces, further bolstering it through a mix of slavery and conscription, that they are trained and conditioned to serve the legion from a young age, without ever questioning their commands.
It's not so much that the legion have a disdain for firearms, it's more that a legionnaire must earn the privilege to bear firearms. The legionnaires have to prove themselves in battle. Elite legionnaires are drawn from the ranks of those who survive battles where there only weapons are sharpened scrap metal, which ensures the elite troops are truly elite, and the legion command is drawn from among that elite group. Comparatively, the average legionnaire supposedly has a training regime on par with the NCR's rangers. In other words, the average legionary is, at least physically, on par with an NCR ranger. The two greatest factors that limit the legion are its weak armor, with most troops (mainly recruits) having little body armour, and low technological prowess, in terms of widespread weapons usage. However, Legionnaires are trained, from what NCR troopers at Hoover Dam claim, to use any weapons picked up from fallen enemies. The legion has two strengths on top of this, 1) incredible training 2) unwavering (in most cases) dedication to the Legion. When combining all these factors together, along with the sheer numbers of legion troops, the Legion is a far more versatile force than the NCR, whose troopers are trained rather poorly, and generally only proficient in ranged combat.
Legion troops are able to adapt to a situation as needed, which is how they have been so successful against the NCR. The legion also have fewer scruples when it comes to things like human rights. They will steamroll over and enslave anything they can thus increasing their size and numbers.
Last of all, is the Legion's battle strategy. The first wave, loaded with recruits is sent in to exhaust the enemy. Considering how skilled recruit legionnaires can be, it's likely most fighting forces will be exhausted after the first wave, if they survive at all, which is then followed up by the true legionnaires. It's a battle of attrition. Of course, picking off the command structure, like the NCR did at Hoover Dam, exposes the legions truest flaw. Without leadership, the people conditioned to follow everything a superior orders fall apart. Of course, for most battles, this would be far easier said than done, and Hoover Dam still required the NCR to blow up an entire city to halt their advance.

In short, in conventional battle, the legion are probably one of, if not realistically the most powerful army in the wasteland. The NCR would not be able to truly hold them back if not for the couriers intervention. They are simply too persistent, devoted and far too organised an enemy for the NCR in it's current state at the start of FNV to stop.

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:25 pm

The Legion? Who? Never heard of 'em, and i know every single person here in the Commonwealth!



Wait...are you talking about those desert-dwelling-girlie-skirt wearing-men from 2281? Yeah...never heard of em...besides they were so six years ago...check the calendar man...it's 2287

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PostSubject: Re: How powerful do you think the legion actually are?   Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:35 pm

@IRORIEH wrote:
In short, in conventional battle, the legion are probably one of, if not realistically the most powerful army in the wasteland.

I still find it so hard to believe that a force of entirely male, football gear wearing, machete wielding slavers would realistically be a dominant force among the wasteland. I also find it hard to believe that after reading a book on Julius Caesar and the Roman Empire, the NV Caesar is able to emulate Caesar's actions to the letter in completely different circumstances in completely different eras.

Now I can understand how the Enclave, NCR, BoS, hell even the Minutemen being a militia force could be such dominant forces across the wasteland, but I have yet to take the Legion seriously. Most of their forces, if not all, fight with melee weapons against firearms most of the time. Legionaries are so easy to kill in comparison to nearly everything else in the game.

Either the NCR are burying their heads in the sand and shooting like stormtroopers or Caesar's Legion are like Neo from the Matrix and can dodge bullets in slow motion, or both.

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