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 Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?

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Visible Earth

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:31 am

@ClinicallyProven wrote:
I dunno. Caesar felt like the "I'm smarter than you because I read my 6th grade history book" kind of guy, or some really spicy Shakespeare.

The brilliant irony of him complaining that you haven't taken the time to read books is that he almost definitely censors information in his own society.

"Political books on democracy and social freedoms? Yeah that can go on the pyre..."

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:16 am

The legion's whole philosophy doesn't make any sense. A society that is hell bent on using inferior technology, weapons, and medicines is bound to fall apart. Especially when they're warring with a faction that not only embraces technology, better weaponry, and modern medicine, they're educated.

Caesar is a smart dude sure, he grew up in the Follower's care and likely got a good education, but the reason why he is so stupid is because of that. You'd think a guy with a good grasp on logistics and how shit works wouldn't make such an ignorant faction.

Not to mention, the tribes he assimilated, the more and more the legion rolls over people the more resentment will build among the legion. And once Caesar isn't there to control it, uprising will break out and the legion will destroy itself from the inside out.

Hell, Marcus in Jacobstown even knows that as that's exactly what he says to you if you ask him about the legion.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:11 pm

Caesar is in my opinion, one of the smartest guys in the Mojave, right next to characters like Ulysses and Joshua Graham. Hell, any high ranking Legionnaire is very smart and well spoken(well, most). The biggest pro that Caesar's Legion has is that they're genuinely intimidating. You don't see raider gangs around their territory, there man have, in my opinion, better training then the NCR, and most legionnaires you see and talk to are not scared to lose their life. That is mainly due to Caesar's strict rule over them. If he see's a Legionnaire that is weak, he'll most likely kill them he see's them as a weak link. When you talk to Cass about the Legion, she says that the Legion has actual pros when it comes to caravans. The main one being is that there is almost zero chance of a caravan being fucked over when they're taking a Legion trade route. The only way a caravan may get in trouble is if they carry chems during the trade route since the Legion forbids any use of drugs. There are not really any other cons of being a caravaneer for the Legion, because we all know that the only faction willing to fuck with them is the NCR. Caesar is a very intelligent man, and a lot of things he talk about has a lot of truth, but his communistic and barbaric views are what pulls me back from supporting him as a leader. Arcade Gannon said it best: "If you set aside his leadership capabilities, extensive knowledge, and ruthless cunning... he's just another jerk who steps on people to get his way." That really is a good description of Caesar. Yes, he may be smart, cunning, and charismatic, but at the end of the day, he's a warlord. He takes what he wants, and with brute force if he has/wants to.

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Lone

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:04 pm

I respect his ideals and his intelligence but it's overshadowed by the Legion's brutal nature. Furthermore it's hard to even look at Caesar and the Legion with an open mind since I play a female character and their treatment of women is horrendous.

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:06 pm

I can see where Caesar is coming from but it definitely has it's flaws to according to the average sane-empathetic human, some appearing to be Enslaving, Torturing, Crucifying, Discrimination on-top of much more. However, those malevolent atrocities are what keep the Legion fearsome to the general public. In my opinion, the biggest flaw in the Legion's system is what the Super Mutant, Marcus encapsulates perfectly, "Caesar thinks he can change human nature. Most of the Legion is following Caesar, not Caesar's ideals. When he's gone, it'll crumble. Might not happen overnight. Might take a few decades. But it'll happen. Basic human nature - greed, ambition, jealously - will see to it."
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:42 pm

"A nationalist, imperialist, homogenous culture that obliterates the identity of every group it conquers."
Sounds pretty scary doesn't it? Until you realize citizens living under the legion have got it pretty good.

Most people are only viewing the horns of the bull charging into the front lines of conquest rather than the actual citizens living under Caesar's Legion eastward into Arizona, Utah and Colorado. In reality the Legion had the safest trade routes, most economic freedom and zero taxation. And achieves all of this without a single bloated bureaucracy made up of a cabal of brahmin barons. Yes, the legion is a slave army made up of conquered tribals and other degenerate raiders, but that only makes up less than 2% of the total population under legion control.
You don't get to see this side of the legion because NV got cut short due to Bethesda's milestone system(They same one that killed Prey 2). Originally, legion controlled area east of the Colorado river was going to be explorable, and it was going to be a 3 way split of land between NCR, Vegas and Caesar's Legion. Instead we only got Vegas, with a sliver of NCR land and an even shorter sliver of Legion land.

The main issue with the legion is the kind of leader that is needed to inherit Caesar's will can only be produced under an individualistic society, which the legion has completely crushed out of it's governmental ranks. Once Caesar kicks the bucket, entropy takes over and his order crumbles. You'll notice none of Caesars slave soldiers shared(or even understood) his philosophy.

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:55 am

Hmm I thought I posted on this topic...weird. Anways, as a opportunistic asshole, I am quite a big fan of The Legion. I used to be pro NCR, due to my military background, but I do prefer chaos.

The Frumentarii are the most interesting in my opinion. They are a specialized group that I would very much strive for if I was in The Legion. As far as Ceasars ideals go, I agree with some things and don't care for the others. I am not the leader though and I will follow his orders without question.

Usually I remain neutral when it comes to a situation, but when the world is already fucked, I wouldn't care. Blood for the blood god!

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:57 am

I have sided with him more than have been against him. On games I do not go solitude route, I go with him. NCR just does not have that vibe for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:07 am

I don't think pluralistic democracies *necessarily* are the best fit for resource-scarce post-apocalyptic wastelands (although there is some credence to the argument that by the time of NV society has somewhat recovered from this). I think he makes plenty of good criticisms of the NCR, but at the same time these criticisms alone serve as poor justification his own actions. I don't see how reverting back to reactionary tribalism and slavery is anymore a solution to the wasteland's problems then old world democracy and pluralism. I'm mixed.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:08 pm

I find it hard to disagree with the end results of Legion occupation. East of the Colorado is supposedly and excellent place to live with no raiders, politicians, or incompetent leaders. But I'm very pro societal equality, so I cannot just support the Legion. In terms of post nuclear crucible America, I feel that Caesar and the underlying Roman ideals is the best short term system. At some point it would have to change, but stability is a necessity in shaping a nation and Caesar offers that in spades.

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:34 am

Nope, don't agree with him for the most part or would side with him. He's just a man who got greedy after being given a lot of power. Can't take anything he says seriously when he shows that he clearly has no morals. Therefore I make sure to kill him in every play-through.

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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:04 am

I agree with him at some parts like the NCR being a really unstable faction and House being a dick, but the I did not like the fact that he enslaves people and refuses to use technology to move forward. To me, the way forward is to utilize the things around you.

Also I'm not comfortable with the idea that just because someone is weak means they deserve to be enslaved instead. That's just really terrible. I do like that Caesar enforces law very well to the point that Caravans feel safer in their territory than NCRs.
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PostSubject: Re: Does anybody actually agree with Caesar?   Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:08 pm

I dont see a big problem with Caesar cruelty or enslaving people. At least, this is a wasteland. All those man behind the legion flag do more less problem when they be a savages or raider.
But no matter how Caesar right in his suggestion, without him, Caesar's Legion will not exist.
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